MISCELLANEOUS Message Board
Wed, 31 May 2006 23:02:37
______________________________________________________________________________
| ============================================================================
|
| 1) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 7:40:24 am 
|
| gregy>
| new board
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 2) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 7:46:31 am 
|
| gregy>
| Last 11 messages:
|
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 516) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 1:58:19 pm 
| |
| | Jake>
| | They've also got interesting stuff on surviving nukes and
| | home-schooling.
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| |  517) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 1:58:44 pm 
| |
| | Jake>
| | I don't mean to imply that home-schooling is as much of a disruption
| | as a
| | nuclear strike <G>
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| |  518) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 2:01:41 pm 
| |
| | Jake>
| | Not that I have experience of either...
| |
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| |  519) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 2:04:39 pm 
| |
| | glennmcc>
| | My sister 'home schooled' her daughter for 2 years..... after which I
| | have a feeling that she wished she had undergone a nuke stike instead.
| |
| | <gggg>
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 520) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 5:38:37 pm 
Š| |
| | ray>
| | URL in 515 most informative. I would trust the source a bit more if
| | it had delt with the changes in the arctic.
| |
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 521) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 5:50:27 pm 
| | URL
| |
| | glennmcc>
| | Arctic info, you say ?
| |
| | No problem. <ggg>
| |
| | http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/np2003/gallery_np_weatherdata.html#weather
| | #weather 
| |
| |
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 522) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 5:53:47 pm 
| | URL
| |
| | glennmcc>
| | And some more.
| |
| | http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/detect/climate-temps.shtml
| |
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 523) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 6:14:47 pm 
| |
| | glennmcc>
| | Reading through the various articles we see that some researchers
| | claim
| | that humans are cusing the various changes... while other researchers
| | claim that we are not.
| |
| | There still remains that one unavoidable and undeniable 'true
| | statement'.
| |
| | "We don't know."
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 524) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 7:33:42 pm 
| |
| | ray>
| | I found the CO2 exchange data in that URL above very useful --
| | if infact the rate of CO2 outgassing from the oceans is potentialy
| | as large as it is, then even the huge amounts we produce are
Š| | not the biggest vector by a long shot. However, therein lies the
| | danger of the 'runaway' -- hot water tends to outgas CO2 and if that
| | CO2 then triggers more warming, we could be in trouble. It is 
| | a potential possitive feedback system, thus caution, and further 
| | research are in order. However, I consider my personal 
| | 'GW panic status' to have been reduced from say burnt orange down
| | to mustard yellow, thanks!
| |
| |  
| |
| |
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 525) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 7:45:46 pm 
| |
| | glennmcc>
| | And mine has gone from 'cool blue' to 'cautious blue-green'.
| |
| | Thanks !
| |
| | <gggg>
| |
| | ==========================================================================
| |
| | 526) Fri, Mar 31, 2006 - 7:53:09 pm 
| |
| | glennmcc>
| | Ya know what ?
| |
| | All of this wishy-washy, uncertain, vague prediction,
| | it-might-be-this, it-might-be-that stuff reminds me of a TV
| | commercial a
| | few years ago for Cheerios.
| |
| | It was aired quite often shortly after all of those 'studies' which
| | touted the health benefits of 'high fiber'.
| |
| | It went like this.....
| |
| | "Some studies suggest that eating a low-fat, high-fiber diet
| | may reduce your risk of developing some kinds of cancer."
| |
| | Now I ask you....
| |
| | Could that statement be any more vague and any more non-committal ???
| |
| | <gggg>
| |
| | ==========================================================================
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 3) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 8:21:51 am 
|
Š| ray>
| -some
| -suggest
| -may
| -reduce
|
|
| Nope, couldn't be much less committed than making a sentance with
| four nested levels of wish-wash.
|
| Make that five levels -- 'study' is also a degree of removal from
| real world fact.
|
| Hmmmm what the world needs is 'the most noncommittal statement of the
| year' awards, the above could be considered a golden oldie.
|
| BTW, food is one area where I'm already as cynical as Gregy -- I don't
| listen to one word 'nutrition experts' have to say because I've 
| already lived long enough to hear them flip-flop on just about any
| point you can name.
|
| fibre: irrelevant-good-essential-irrelevant
| salt:  good-irrelevant-BAD!-irrelevant-good.
| fat:   good-BAD!-some bad, some good-bad ones ok with red wine-
|        oppps, bad ones still bad with red wine-good ones not good after
|        all-GOOD!
| starch: (polar inverse of 'fat' above at any given time)
| vit.C : huh?-good-VERY good-good-don't worry about it.
| etc.
| etc.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 4) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 9:20:13 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray...well, the one that really tickled my funny bone, was the flippity
| they recently did on eggs....<g g g g g>
| ...
| Of course...I've always know that food fried in grease (not "fat" food
| ..just the grease-fried stuff) will usually make my stomach hot (i.e.
| having to work extra hard to digest)....and...of course, "THEY" say,
| "Take a Rolaid"....he he he...which is the eggs-ACK-ted opposite of
| what NEEDS to be done.....the "hot" is because you don't have enough
| stomach acid to smoothly, effortlessly digest the "grease-fried" stuff
| ....so...they tell you to lower the acid even more.....<g g g>
| ...
| However....I don't listen to "them"......<g g g g>
| ...
| I try to get usual vitamins/minerals....the closest to natural as I can
| get.....and try to balance my diet....but...but...I'm NOT my mother..
| ...and I can't feed myself really properly...so...I just make sure that
| I DO get my fiber (just to keep things moving....)...I think that does
Š| more good than most other things......and....I do take some extra E and
| C and Calcium+D, and CoQ10, and Omega-3s.....and...he he he...someday
| I'm gonna die.....<g g g g>
| ...
| Unfortunately...I know of NO one who's actually "lived longer"...<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 5) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 9:22:45 am 
|
| gregy>
| ...and, if I did...I prolly wouldn't ask him what his "secret" was...
| 'cause I doan wanna know.....I'm gonna get out of here JUST as soon as
| the Good Lord wants me to....and I don't intend to stay ONE second
| longer...<g g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 6) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 9:27:20 am 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn...Ray..et al....we had 526messages on here....Technical Question
| ...I had problems with Arachne doing a complete download of "all
| messages"....I mean....it would break off somewhere before the download
| finished.....I have experienced problems here, before, and I want to
| know if anyone else has every had problems downloading about above 256
| messages....???
| ...
| FWIW...I finally went over to my other (486dlc 40MHz) box and used my
| Win3.1/NN4.08 to grab it down, whereupon I could save it and then let
| Arachne look at it and "P"convert-to-text for the Archive...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 7) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 9:28:20 am 
|
| gregy>
| Oh, the "download breaks" problem happened with KeepAlive both YES and
| NO....
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 8) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 11:01:58 am 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| dunno, never tried it. Once we build up over that number I'll try
| again and let you know.
|
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 9) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 11:40:16 am 
|
| gregy>
| Please....I'll give a shout when I think it's "ripe".....<g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 10) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 2:36:40 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| For those partial downloads....
|
| 1) Ctrl+Enter
| or
| 2) EnterBGDL Yes
|
|
| I have it fixed now in my current compile by increasing
| the retry limit in the 'Q&D fix of the RDLC bug' to 96000
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 11) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 2:51:15 pm 
|
| ray>
|
| It looks like I'm rid of that, I've had the fix commented out for
| a while now and all's well. Glenn, that fix has to be trouble,
| it obviously is just a delay generator and it might work different
| on different machines. I'd look at putting a 'delay(xxxx)' in there.
| or, better, find the first build with the problem and root it
| out properly, you can't bee fooling with that number for ever.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 12) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 3:31:06 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| No... it is not a delay generator.
|
| What it does is to count how many times Arachne has unsuccessfully
| retried to get data from the server.
|
| When that count reaches 32000 (in all compiles but my current one),
| she 'breaks the cycle'.
|
| In my current compile... the cycle does not get broken till 96000.
|
| The RDLC bug is intermittent and ONLY occurs on pages where we _do not_
| know the size of the page. (like here)
Š|
| I'll do some experimenting and be back in a few min. with a step-by-step
| procedure for forcing it to happen in your compile now that you have the
| fix commented-out.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 13) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 3:34:04 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As for the first build with the problem....
|
| It started with Michael's release of v1.69
| (was still there in all 3 releases of v1.70)
|
| It ended with my release of v1.71;UE01
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 14) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 3:41:02 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| A message from back when it was 24000 instead of 32000
|
| http://www.mail-archive.com/arachne@arachne.cz/msg20545.html
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 15) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 3:59:00 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Here are couple of URLs we used for testing 4 years ago.
|
| ------------------------------
|
| Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:23:12 -0500
| From: "Glenn McCorkle" <glennmcc@cisnet.com>
| Subject: Re: Runaway url
|
| On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:01:54 -0500, Sam Ewalt wrote:
|
| > Glenn,
|
| > You could try this one:
|
| > http://www.greatlakessurplus.com/working/index.asp
|
| > Sometimes it runs, sometimes it doesn't. I don't see much
| > consistency with runaways.
|
| > This ran the first time I went there. The site doesn't behave well.
|
| > I'll send you more as I get them.
Š|
| Could you perhaps mean this one instead???
| http://www.greatlakesarmysurplus.com/working/index.asp
|
| If that's it, you have the honor of submitting the
| very first URL to crash v1.71;alpha :(((
|
| It took 6 reload/aborts to do it but it crashed.
|
| I will CC this one to the list so that everyone will know that
| my "quick-n-dirty fix" is not yet ready for prime time use.
| (hence my version number of 1.71;alpha) :((
|
| __________
|
| Now to all list members.
|
| You have my personal promise that I will continue to work on
| this until I find a "permanent fix".
|
| - -- 
|  Glenn
|  http://arachne.cz/
|  http://freedos-32.sourceforge.net/
|  http://www.delorie.com/listserv/mime/
|  http://www.angelfire.com/id/glenndoom/download.htm
|
| ------------------------------
|
| Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:10:52 -0400
| From: "Clarence Verge" <caverge@prime-online.com>
| Subject: Re: Runaway url
|
| On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:23:12 -0500, Glenn McCorkle wrote:
|
| > Could you perhaps mean this one instead???
| > http://www.greatlakesarmysurplus.com/working/index.asp
|
| > If that's it, you have the honor of submitting the
| > very first URL to crash v1.71;alpha :(((
|
| > It took 6 reload/aborts to do it but it crashed.
|
| I couldn't do it here in 10 tries (ESC at various points) , and there
| was no problem on several completed downloads. <g>
|
| I just tried it another 10 times before sending. I'm still on the
| original boot. ;-)
|
| It's not as badass you think. <G>
|
| - -  Clarence Verge.
| - -- Using Arachne 1.66 on DSL.
|
| ------------------------------
Š|
| Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 21:05:55 -0500
| From: "Glenn McCorkle" <glennmcc@cisnet.com>
| Subject: Re: Runaway url
|
| On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:58:06 -0800, Clarence Verge wrote:
|
| > On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:23:12 -0500, Glenn McCorkle wrote:
|
| >> Could you perhaps mean this one instead???
| >> http://www.greatlakesarmysurplus.com/working/index.asp
|
| >> If that's it, you have the honor of submitting the
| >> very first URL to crash v1.71;alpha :(((
|
| >> It took 6 reload/aborts to do it but it crashed.
|
| > I couldn't do it here in 10 tries (ESC at various points) , and there
| > was no problem on several completed downloads. <g>
|
| > I just tried it another 10 times before sending. I'm still on the
| > original boot. ;-)
|
| > It's not as badass you think. <G>
|
| OK, I just tried again.
|
| 50 reload/aborts...... no crash. (this was with an empty cache)
|
| I then hit "Q" on a page full of links and placed 21 items into the cache.
|
| 50 more reload/aborts..... no crash.
|
| Hit "Q" on http://www.greatlakesarmysurplus.com/working/index.asp
| (now 52 items in cache)
|
| 50 more reload/aborts...... still no crash. :)
|
| Maybe it *IS* ready for prime time after-all. :)))
|
| But, before we can say that... I need some more sites to try it on.
|
| So please, keep those URLs coming.
|
| Also, please send URLs where it happens "spontaneously".
| (all by itself without hitting the abort button or the ESC key)
|
| Here's an example of a "spontaneous RDL" site.
|
| http://my.netzero.net/s/sp?r=logout
| (spontaneous runaway and crash of v1.70;r.3)
|
| This site is no problem in v1.71;alpha
| (the quick-n-dirty fix stops the crash)
|
Š| ____
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 16) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:05:37 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| This one does it....
|
| http://my.netzero.net/s/sp?r=logout
|
| Be sure that you have 'ESC Ignore'
|
| Left-click that link and allow about 5kb
| to download before hitting the ESC key.
|
| There goes the Runaway DownLoad Counter
|
| It keeps on going and going untill she finally crashes.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 17) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:07:02 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn...hmmm...now WHY???? didn't I remember that "background d/l"
| myself...???....<gg g g>
| ..
| Next time I get bogged down in here trying to download "all messages"
| so's I can archive....I'll try that....see if it fixes the problem..
| ...I suspect that it will....
| ...I DO know that the CTRL-ENTER works flawlessly for the purpose we
| intended it....so...maybe we've killed two birds with that one stone
| ....<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 18) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:07:31 pm 
|
| ray>
| But it is a delay generator. The only change going from x thousand
| cycles to y thousand cycles is that it is forced to try for
| a longer time before giving up. You could put a delay in there 
| and then cycle, say 10 times and then quit and it would be more
| robust. Try 'delay(100)' and ten cycles, that amounts to one second
| with 10 tries. Code like what you've got is good to identify a
| troublesome loop, but it's a ducttape fix.
|
Š| So v 1.67 was clean? If you want I'll send you my industrial 
| strength code comparators ... s*** that won't work, they need
| 4DOS. Hmmm, if you can find a copy of 1.67 and 1.69 and send them both
| to tripod I'll find the problem.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 19) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:08:09 pm 
|
| gregy>
| No...I'm not gonna go there...I've already had one of those, and I don't
| feel like rebooting, right now....<g g g g>
| ..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 20) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:08:09 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As I said... it's intermittent.
|
| Sometimes it Runsaway... sometimes not.
|
| But with the fix in-place .... she _never_ runsaway.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 21) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:13:54 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ray.... no it is not a delay genator.
|
| It is a loiop stopper.
|
| That is the section of code that keeps getting looped through
| when the RDLC bug rears its ugly head.
|
| All my code does is count how many times the loop has been executed and
| breaks out of the loop after 96000 times through without getting any new
| data from the server.
|
| If at any time some new data arives from the server....
| the counter gets reset to zero awwaiting the next occurrence of
| 'looping without getting any new data'.
|
| Each time some new data arrives... the counter reset to zero.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 22) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:24:26 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Here's the bug in action a few min ago with v1.70,r3
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/images/rdlc_170.gif
|
| And here it is just now in my fresh compile of 1.91 with the fix commented-o
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/images/rdlc_170.gif
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 23) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:27:42 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Have a look at the download counter in each screen-cap.
|
| Had I not hit the PrintScreen key to do screen-cap it would have
| continued going until an Xswap crash occurred.
|
|
| That page used to cause a spontanious RDLC but it now requires the
| hitting of the ESC key or the 'X' abort download.
|
|
| And it is intermittent...
| had to try 15 times with v1.70 and 25 times with v1.91
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 24) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:32:49 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| There we go.... 21 tries with v1.91 to get it happen and allowed it
| to keep going on through to the crash.
|
| Illegal Xswap at line 573 of htmlstat.c
|
| But that is not consistant either.
|
| The actual Xswap crash will be at different places in different files
| from one time to the next.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 25) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:34:31 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Only had to try twice this time..... same place... line 573 in htmlstat.c
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 26) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:39:49 pm 
Š|
| glennmcc>
| Back now after a 'cold reboot'.
|
| This timne it took 7 tries but it did not cause an Xswap crash.
|
| Instead... I was 100% locked-up at 1850000 showing on the d/l counter.
|
| Even the keyboard was 100% lockedout the numlock key did mnot turn-off
| its light, the Capslock key would not turn-on its light and Ctrl+Alt+Del
| woukld not reboot.
|
| Had to press the reset button on the CPU
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 27) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 4:43:51 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Here now with v1.91 with the fix in-place.
|
| 10 times now I have 'activated the bug' and the counter began to runaway.
|
| All 10 times the fix stopped the runaway and displayed the page normally.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 28) Sat, Apr 01, 2006 - 6:35:30 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| ar189 7151 (since Nov 27, 2005)
|
| 7151 / 125 = 57.2 per day
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 29) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 1:39:09 pm 
|
| ray>
| No point in arguing. But this isn't an either/or question: it is
| a loop breaker of course, but it works by creating a delay before
| giving up on further input. Never mind, my code works fine without
| it.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 30) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 2:04:29 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Don't get wrong... I'm not argueing.
|
| Just as usual... not explaining myself properly. <ggg>
|
Š| The code does not create anything.
|
| All it does is keep count of how many times that section of the code has
| been passed without getting any new data from the server.
|
| That's it ... nothing more.
|
| That's why it does not come into play when we do a BGdownload.
|
| During a BGdownload.... html.c does not get executed till the download
| is complete and we click on the link again to load the page from our
| cache.
|
| The only time that code gets executed is during a 'normal download'
| of an HTML file where arachne renders the html during the download.
|
| In addition...
| the code does not get executed if we know the size of the file.
|
|
| Now..... have I made myself as clear as mud this time ??? <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 31) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 6:04:50 pm 
|
| ray>
| This background download stuff remains a black box to me -- no
| idea how it works. I'm still pretty much afraid to enter the 
| haunted forest of html.c except for very simple stuff. And as I said,
| I have no clue how I 'fixed' that code so your fix isn't needed
| anymore.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 32) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 6:05:50 pm 
|
| ray>
| Hey when is Joe uploading his sources? Time to start poaching ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 33) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 6:30:03 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Sorry to break the bad news to ya.....
|
| A fresh compile of your B6a core.exe with the RDLC fix commented-out
| ranaway and locked-up-tight-as-drum.
|
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/b6ardlc1.gif
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/b6ardlc2.gif
Š|
| Could you please email me a copy of your current core.exe along with
| arachne.bat and keywords.cfg ?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 34) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 6:51:14 pm 
|
| ray>
| What URL? Let me see if I can confirm it here first. Those
| photos, what am I supposed to see there?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 35) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 6:54:27 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| http://my.netzero.net/s/sp?r=logout
|
| #1 is the full screen locked-up-tight
| #2 is the D/L counter locked at 2.95 meg on a 41kb page.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 36) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 6:57:17 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| To force the RDLC ...
|
| Repeated hit 'R' and then left click the 'X' abort transfer button
| at about 25kb to 30kb
|
| As you can just barely see in photo #1 ... there's your green mouse
| cursor on the 'X' button. ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 37) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 7:01:48 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| You have to keep trying over and over again to force the bug out of hiding.
|
| It took me an average of 20 tries each time to get it happen...
| (sometimes 35 or 40), but it did rear its ugly little head.
|
| That was the only time I was able to get some photos.
|
| The other 3 times I forced it.... 'Hard crash' with a spontanious cold
| reboot of the system.
|
| No error messages... no nothing at-all... just BAM !!! ...
Š| my machine rebooted itself. :((
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 38) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 7:58:20 pm 
|
| ray>
| Right you are, I can make it happen, but it takes some pretty 
| nasty abuse, I've gotta hit R repetedly then ESC or "X". I get
| a MALLOCERR. But it's strange, the first press of ESC doens't
| stop the transfer totaly, just sorta slows it down to a crawl, and
| the mouse becomes jumpy -- clearly the code is wandering into
| some loop that's taking far too long (not mutch news there eh? ;-)
| A double click or ESC seems to actualy abort the transfer properly
| tho. 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 39) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 8:01:14 pm 
|
| ray>
| However, given the keyboard abuse thats needed for this to happen,
| I wonder if this should even be considered a bug at all. Sheesh you
| can make any program crash with this sort of thing. I figure unless
| this happens during normal use I'm not inclined to worry about it.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 40) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 8:08:18 pm 
|
| ray>
| Son of a gun, I just realized Arachne allows key stacking! I just
| took it for granted that that would be verboten, it *should* be
| verboten. Nuts' if repeated 'R's are stacked, it's hardly surprising
| that she never gets to sort herself out. My 'Used XMS' number is
| buggered, that means that some memory is alocated but not released
| due to the repeated 'R's.  
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 41) Sun, Apr 02, 2006 - 10:15:45 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    This CTRL-ENTER stuff works if used on a link in a page...
| but...it doesn't work in the address is entered in the URL box. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 42) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 2:34:16 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...yes...not on an "...address is entered in the URL box. <ggg>"
| ....
Š| (sheeeh...that's how me'n Glenn keep it secret)...I mean...it'd be
| widely known, if it worked in too many places.....<g g g>
| ..
| We keep it sooooo secret....that even I forgot about it day-before
| yesterday, when I was trying to d/l lotsa "all messages".....<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 43) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 7:06:04 am 
|
| Eric>
| Re: CTRL-ENTER download
| Gregy,   Well, because it only works from the links, I thought it was
| broken since I had tried it several times with no success. After all,
| at least half the time what I want to load I enter in the URL box.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 44) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 8:13:38 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmmm....
|
| http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/04/cooler_heads_needed_on_war
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 45) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 9:01:28 am 
|
| gregy>
| More..hmmmmmmm
|
| http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=SXCBJ4ZQ2WIPVQFIQMG
| http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1065-2113244,00.html
| http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article355170.ece
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 46) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 9:12:19 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
|
| http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 47) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 9:12:52 am 
Š| URL
|
| gregy>
|
| http://sandbox.blog-city.com/powerful_lobby.htm
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 48) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 10:01:16 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmm....hmmmmmm
|
| http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2006/2006-04-07/feature1p/index.html
| http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2006/2006-04-07/editorial-p/index.html
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 49) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 10:11:10 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| 'nother ..hhmmmmmmms....
|
| http://www.washtimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20060402-112828-5298r
| http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V6R-4JJGCC0-2&_co
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 50) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 10:16:54 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| whole bunch of hhhmmmmmmmsssss.....
|
| http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110008180
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 51) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 4:24:30 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ray,
|
| re:"... unless this happens during normal use...."
|
| That's the problem with that bug.
Š|
| It _does_ happen during normal use.
|
| As noted in that old message from the original Arachne mailing list.
|
| That particular link at NetZero had at that time been causing the RDLC
| 'spontaniously' without ever touching a key of clicking a button.
|
| The particlar cercumstances on that particular page have changed other
| the years and it no longer happens spontaniously at that link.
|
| But there are still many pages out there where it _does_ happen
| either spontaniously or upon the fist hit of ESC or click of 'X'
|
| The simple truth is that since putting that 'Quick-N-Dirty Fix' in there....
| (v1.71;UE01 on up to and including v1.89;GPL)
| There has not been so-much-as a single bug report made on RDLC.
|
| Your compile (and my test compile(s) with it commented-out),
| are the only ones to exhibit "The return of the RDLC bug".
|
| IMO,
| For that reason... the fix must stay in there until such time as we find
| the actual cause/cure.
|
| Agreed ???
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 52) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 4:33:01 pm 
|
| ray>
| Glenn,
|
| I'll leave it commented out till I find a 'real world' example, mostly
| because I want to find one so's I can do replicable tests on
| it when I find it.  If I do find one, I'll do a function call trace
| on it and find the root cause. The nice thing about not having the
| burden of the standard core on my shoulders is I don't have to
| be careful :-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 53) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 4:35:07 pm 
|
| ray>
| But I hear you -- we both understand da Silva's law: A bug that
| just 'seems to have gone away' isn't dead, just sleeping ...
|
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 54) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 4:35:55 pm 
|
| ray>
| Come to think of it, I have a foolproof way of tempting the Gods ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 55) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 6:01:15 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Be very careful when 'tempting the Gods'.
|
| They most often get tempted right into biting you in the ass.
|
| <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 56) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 8:25:35 pm 
|
| ray>
| Yes, that's the idea. I want them to hit me with their best
| shot with this RDLC thing. I'd rather have the bug than not know
| if it's dead or just sleeping. Trouble I can handle, uncertainlty
| is much harder. Come to think of it Glenn, I don't *need* the Gods --
| if there is a page that my code can't handle vis. RDCL I'm sure
| you will find it faster than any mere deities.
|
| BTW, since you have my code, have you tried my FUNCTRAC stuff?
| It's very far from friendly but it sure works for tracking hangs
| and stuck loops. If you want I'll get you up to speed using it.
| You can also track a variable or anything else you want.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 57) Mon, Apr 03, 2006 - 8:27:37 pm 
|
| ray>
| Oh, I'm not saying that your better than the Gods, just more
| BLOODY MINDED < G G G G G G > 
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 58) Tue, Apr 04, 2006 - 4:14:13 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
Š| Well, sir....
|
| If you're really that much of a glutton for punishment.
|
| I'll find ya such a page.
|
| <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 59) Tue, Apr 04, 2006 - 5:45:03 pm 
|
| ray>
| No punishment, if it's there it's there, better to find it sooner 
| rather than latter, besides, your fix can be restored at a moments
| notice so it's no biggy.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 60) Tue, Apr 04, 2006 - 7:14:58 pm 
|
| ray>
| Just loading that 'mynetzero' page and got a 'premature end of JPEG'
| msg. First time, but could that have anything to do with that
| page being troublesome?
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 61) Tue, Apr 04, 2006 - 7:35:25 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Nope.... not connected.
|
| The RDLC bug is associated with only HTML pages themselves, not with any
| images that might be embedded within the page.
|
| It only manifests itself when rendering the page during the download.
|
| That's why it never happens when we do a BG download of an HTML page.
| (the rendering does not happen till the download is complete)
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 62) Tue, Apr 04, 2006 - 9:01:59 pm 
|
| ray>
| Whatever, as I said, I haven't the slightest idea how all that
| stuff works yet.
Š|
| BTW, been fooling around with popget. Bastiaan gets those hanging
| mails often enough that I've got something to chew on. Now 
| riddle me this: why is it that most of the time 'locallength' 
| ends up being negative by the time the message ends? It seems 
| that almost all messages are infact longer than they are supposed
| to be. Surely to god the server knows how long they are. 
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 63) Wed, Apr 05, 2006 - 7:27:26 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| big, looonnnnngggg ...hmmmmmmmmm
|
| http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=13714
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 64) Wed, Apr 05, 2006 - 7:16:40 pm 
|
| ray>
| That URL hangs here with all cores :( Is this one of those  
| blasted keyword things?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 65) Wed, Apr 05, 2006 - 7:42:06 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| .exe uploaded to tripod, do you need the pw?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 66) Wed, Apr 05, 2006 - 8:09:45 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| define 'hangs' ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 67) Wed, Apr 05, 2006 - 8:25:39 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
Š| BTW,
|
| No PW needed for downloading stuff from tripod.....
|
| http://rayandrews0.tripod.com/build6o.zip
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 68) Wed, Apr 05, 2006 - 8:27:55 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| But you _do_ need to turn-off httpreferer on opt_pers.ah
|
| _ Send information called "Referer" during each HTTP session.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 69) Wed, Apr 05, 2006 - 11:43:07 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Ray,  Why does http://rayandrews0.tripod.com/index.htm
| not show any files on your site?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 70) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 7:02:33 am 
|
| ray>
| Eric,
|
| I think it's because I haven't updated the index, if I understand this. 
| However, a FTP logon should show everything. Gotta love FTP,
| it's faster and the listing of files is automatic. I'd update the 
| http index if I knew how, but no spik HTML.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 71) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 2:09:10 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Ray...got it...
| ..
| Glenn...thanks for that "referrer" headsup.....he he...sure enough, I
| tried it "the other way" the first time.....he he he
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 72) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 3:25:57 pm 
|
| ray>
Š| Gregy,
|
| Ok, once we get it running, first order of buisiness is to confirm
| Vladimir's problem with Google on the other board, then, see if
| you can instance the RDLC bug. We can make it happen with repeted
| hits of "R" then ESC, but I mean in 'normal' use.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 73) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 3:26:46 pm 
|
| ray>
| And if he's not too busy, it would be great to have Eric's 
| feeback too ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 74) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 5:09:11 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Eric, Ray.....
|
| http://rayandrews0.tripod.com/
|
| Is that a little better ? <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 75) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 8:42:17 pm 
|
| ray>
| Merci beaucoup!
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 76) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 8:58:52 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| vous κtes bienvenu
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 77) Thu, Apr 06, 2006 - 10:33:27 pm 
| URL
|
| Reset00>
| A page that displays the Arachne Desktop icons - the large ones.
| Also a new Quickpad Doc page at
|
Š| http://telusplanet.net/public/bjlcasto/arapages.htm
|
| at Reset00.com
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 78) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 3:31:34 am 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    Does #76 mean: "Glad to be of help"
| Re:  HTTPreferer  -  are you saying this has to be turned off for
| FTP to work?
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 79) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 3:34:48 am 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    Oh yes,  thanks for the index. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 80) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 4:55:26 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...no..HTTPreferer doesn't have to be turned off to work....except
| ...except for that tripod site of Ray's.....<g g g>
| ..
| ...and maybe for the other, odd site....but...normally, that setting is
| default Yes, and works fine for most sites...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 81) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 5:09:36 am 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn....I'd really like to get that ArachneFTPupload working...I've
| struggled and tried all the things you laid out for me...but...I just
| cannot make it work....I'm sure I'm missing some small thing...<g g g>
| ...
| So, go first to the place where we were/are talking about dosCDRoast
| ..
| then...go second to the place where we were/are talking about atcpip
| ...
| Then come back here as tell me "I got them" and I'll give you "the rest
| of the story"......<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 82) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 9:26:00 am 
Š|
| glennmcc>
| Eric,
|
| re:"HTTPreferer  -  are you saying this has to be turned off for
| FTP to work?"
|
| I think you will be able to answer your own question if you look at the
| first 4 letters of the 1st line in your question compared to the first 3
| letters of the 2nd line in your question.
|
| <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 83) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 9:31:22 am 
|
| glennmcc>
| As to your 1st question....
|
| vous κtes bienvenu == You are welcome
|
| Which was in reply to Ray's...
|
| Merci beaucoup! == Thank you very much!
|
|
| And no, I don't speak French.
|
| Et non, je ne parle pas franηais.
|
| I cheated. <ggg>
|
| http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 84) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 9:34:50 am 
|
| glennmcc>
| Gregy,
|
| I got them. ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 85) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 11:21:28 am 
|
| gregy>
| :)))
| ...
| ftp://user:pass@ftp.arachne.virtualave.net/apub/
| ...
| just try it with a small file, labeled 11TEST.TXT
Š| ...
| ..what I need to know is that you CAN do it....I mean..that that site
| isn't anything STRANGE....<g g g>
| ...
| Thanks...
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 86) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 11:26:11 am 
|
| gregy>
| BTW...I'm getting these new drives loaded and setup....I'm here, now
| on this IExploder3.03 (yes, I know...don't say it...but I use these
| little things for comparison).....which was a BUGger to install and
| setup.....but...hey....that's kinda what you expect with mz$loth, isn't
| it...<g g g>
| ...
| next get the IE5 installed/setup (I know, I know....<g g g>...)...there
| is ONE, count it, ONE site where the IE5 is required...can't do it with
| the NN408...and, before this, I couldn't get the v.5 to install/run on
| my 486....but...on this box it should....
| ...and I MUST have it for just that one site....so....hey....life is
| cruel.....<g g g g>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 87) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 12:09:46 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Got it. :)
|
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/images/ftp_up.gif
|
| 1) pressed 'H' to view my hotlist
| 2) pressed F2
| 3) entered the info as seen in that screen cap
| 4) pressed the upload button
|
| You now have hotlistg.htm at the other place ;-)
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 88) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 12:13:37 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Just now downloaded it via FTP, edited it and re-uploaded it as hotliste.htm
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 89) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 12:14:55 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
Š| Done playing .... you can change your password now. <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 90) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:05:20 pm 
|
| gregy>
| he he...we were uploading at the same time....<g g g>....I had a big
| 65minute file to upload, and /apub/ was empty when I started...when I
| finished...voila...!!!...there were your two files.....thanks...I'll
| grab your .GIF....hopefully I can "follow the pitchers"....<g g g>
| ...
| BTW...I thought you worked on Fridays....and were off during the week
| ....???
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 91) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:06:53 pm 
|
| gregy>
| oh, the pass...you, me and Jake are the only folks who have the "keys to
| the house"....I suppose Hoody might remember it, too....but...it's not
| spread abroad....and we'll leave it with you....it might be useful again
| in the future....
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 92) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:08:11 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| oh, also....
|
| http://arachne.virtualave.net/apub/drives.zbm
|
| that's how my new drives are being set up....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 93) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:34:38 pm 
|
| gregy>
| got it...!!!!!
| ...
| and I found out one thing I was doing wrong....
| ftp.arachne.virtualave.net/ is NOT correct....the "/" throws the WHOLE
| thing off...
| ...but...I successfully uploaded my own hotlist (it's empty, on this
| box, 'cause I haven't yet transferred stuff over)...but...it went up
| ...and it's there....<g g g g>
| ..
Š|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 94) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:43:11 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Now...however, Glenn....I've done it again, and it WORKS..!!!..<g g g>
| ..but (youknewthiswascoming)....
| ..I'm mystified as to why I always get "Login incorrect" back from the
| server when I....
| ftp://ftp.arachne.virtualave.net/
| ..
| With the proper Username/Passwords in my ARACHNE.CFG
| ...
| ??????
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 95) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:50:16 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| ftp://ftp.arachne.virtualave.net/ == anonymous login
|
| Same as...........
|
| ftp://anonymous:youremail@address.com@ftp.arachne.virtualave.net/
|
| In my case...
|
| ftp://anonymous:glennmcc@cisnet.com@ftp.arachne.virtualave.net/
|
| Sine AV does not permitt anonymous login == login incorrect error message
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  96) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:51:35 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| The FTP username/password saved in Arachne.cfg are only used for FTP uploads
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 97) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:54:03 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| BTW,
|
| I'm on FireFox in Slackware Linux right now.
|
| Apache is running so my Home based sever is up. ;-)
|
Š| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/myserver.htm
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  98) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 1:58:02 pm 
|
| gregy>
| But...I've been fighting things all night...and I've gotta get some
| sleep...so I'll fiddle with that tonight...
| ...
| Oh, BTW...Glenn...how did you generate that .GIF you posted....the best
| I can do is .ZBMs or .BMPs.....??????
| ..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 99) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 2:00:14 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Used GWS (Graphics WorkShop), to convert the .BMP to .GIF
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  100) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 2:04:02 pm 
|
| gregy>
| okay...I see.....did you d/l that .ZBM....????
| ...
| I need to do some adjusting on my MIME or such....since when I tried to
| "Export as .jpg" it errored back at me....
| ..
| but...hey....I'm just fumbling around right now....I gotta get to bed.
| ...g'nite....errmmmmm....g'day....<g g g>
| ...
| And...thanks again for FINALLY blowing the smog out of my eyes on that
| Arachne FTPupload.....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 101) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 2:08:11 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| I'll need to wait till I shut-down Linux and get back into DOS.
|
| Linux don't understand ZBM ;-)
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  102) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 2:09:02 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| To 'export as JPG' you'll need cjpeg.exe 
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 103) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 2:19:12 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| --- just now uploaded .htaccess ---
|
| AddType image/x-zbitmap               zbm
| AddType application/x-arachne-package apm
| AddType image/bmp                     bmp
| AddType audio/x-vorbis                ogg
| AddType application/xml               rdf
| AddType application/xml               rss
| _________________________________________
|
| The other place now understands ZBM ... and more ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 104) Fri, Apr 07, 2006 - 9:36:36 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Anybody here like Luis Royo art ?
|
| http://www.luisroyo.com/orianbl.htm
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 105) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 2:11:00 am 
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmm....I guess I've sorta had that idea in the back of my mind...and
| I was gonna ask about it and deal with it...someday....<g g g g>...but
| ...you beat me even to my question......<g g g>
| ...
| Thanks...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 106) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 2:26:57 am 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn...I'm here in my NN408/w31...and all the message posts appear in
| whitebg/blacktext......and that's the way it looks with Arachne, and
| the way I want it.....but (youknewthiswascoming)....that little IE303w31
| shows the last two message posts as whitebg/redtext.....
| ...
| Any idea why IE303 does that....???  I mean, other than that it's just
| what we'd expect of a mz$loth product.....<g g g g>
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 107) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 2:29:39 am 
|
| gregy>
| oops...my mistake....messages here, in Arachne have the reverse, which
| is blackbg/whitetext....and THAT's just the way I want it....all other
| browsers show default whitebg/blacktext...while Arachne is the reverse
| ....he he....
| ..that way I can "surf while groggy".....and still know instinctively
| whether I'm in my "home" environment....or in a "foreign" one...<g g g>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 108) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 4:04:46 am 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   Re: #104,  That looks like one dangerous wowman.....
| I wonder....be she a friend of Robin Hood? <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  109) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 4:18:43 am 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,  On second observation of Cerrar Ventana,  maybe that is a
| holster on Cerrar's thigh.  It looked like a quiver at first.....or
| maybe that's what I felt <ggg> ... Perhaps she plays with Buck Rodgers?
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  110) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 4:25:42 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   Re: message colors - perhaps those are just hotter
| messages?  Or an indication that you are at the bottom of the
| board.  <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|   111) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 4:37:03 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   On my other DOS computer which runs on a combination of
| Basic and Batch files and my editor....the colors often switch on me
| and I don't know why.  It is not programmed that way.  I often have to
| re-trace a page by switching windows to get back the proper colors.
| I think it's my editor which does it but I'm not sure.  I gets hard to
| read when colors don't contrast enough.   
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  112) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 6:00:12 am 
Š|
| gregy>
| Eric....<g g g>....."hotter messages"......<g g g>
| ..
| ..but...it doesn't do that in NetscapeNavigator 4.08/win31....and seems
| to ONLY do it in the IExpolder3.03/win31.....and, of course, not in
| Arachne....so....I'm mystified.....
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 113) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 6:40:22 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,     Have you seen BACKPACKER magazine for April 2006?....
| It has a big blurb on "America's #1 Park - Glacier"
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 114) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 6:44:21 am 
| URL
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,    Re:#113 - maps on backpacker.com/hikes
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 115) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 2:38:34 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| post 106....
|
| Tou answered your own Q with....
|
| "...other than that it's just what we'd expect of a mz$loth product....."
|
| <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 116) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 2:47:59 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As to the colors here in Arachne....
|
| <body arachne>
|
| This causes all Arachne visitors to these boards to see it in the
| same color scheme they have setup for their Arachne desktop colors.
|
| Since you are seeing white text on black background...
| these are your settings over on 'Options/Prefs. & Perf.'
|
| Desktop colors
Š| Text _ Black X White _ Green _ Wood 
| Bg.  X Black _ White _ Gray  _ Sand 
| Link X Blue  _ Lime  _ Red   _ Yellow 
|
| Desktop background image
| _ filename: __________________
| _ swirls (dark) 
| _ paper (light) 
| _ green twilight (dark) 
| X do not use any background image 
|
| If you change to an image.... you get that image here and on the F10 desktop
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 117) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 2:50:42 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Eric,
|
| That link you left in post 114 is 100% JavaShit !!!!
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 118) Sat, Apr 08, 2006 - 3:05:43 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| rayandrews0
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 119) Sun, Apr 09, 2006 - 3:08:53 am 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc, Re: #117 - I know, I didn't write the page...that's just
| normal for a majority of links harvested from magazines today!
| It's also doesn't take you directly to the maps and it ain't
| easy to find them. In my opinion, it's a typically, badly
| written/laid out site.  But if you search eventually one finds
| some maps if one is using a JS capable browser. <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 120) Sun, Apr 09, 2006 - 1:29:21 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| By that time... the weather has turned bad and can't go hiking. <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 121) Sun, Apr 09, 2006 - 2:16:31 pm 
|
| Eric>
Š| glennmcc,   That's what bad weather is for.....studying maps! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 122) Sun, Apr 09, 2006 - 6:36:52 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....better make that backpack trip in a hurry....the glaciers are
| melting....except for where they are increasing......<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 123) Sun, Apr 09, 2006 - 7:20:54 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| he he he...I feel soooo sad for this guy...he keeps getting weirder and
| weider..further out and further out......<g g g g>
|
| http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/8/213816.shtml
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 124) Mon, Apr 10, 2006 - 5:17:04 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Well, you can feel sad if you so choose.
|
| Personally,
| I do not feel sad for and I do not pity someone who's _that_ STUPID.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 125) Mon, Apr 10, 2006 - 11:25:00 pm 
| URL
|
| X86>
| MORNING:  My web server may be down over the coming weeks due to the builder
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  126) Tue, Apr 11, 2006 - 6:06:50 pm 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| As they say for radio competitions: "Answers on a postcard, please"...
|
| I heard a European Space Agency high-up interviewed a few months ago, and
| he said it was just his job to provide an engineering solution, but did
| later say it was great fun to have plenty of funding at his disposal.
|
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
|  127) Sun, Apr 16, 2006 - 8:08:07 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Greetings...
| ...
| For those of you of the "Christian Persuasion"....I greet you with:
|
| "He is risen"...and reply, "He is risen, indeed."
| ...
| Happy Easter....<g g gg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 128) Sun, Apr 16, 2006 - 10:05:50 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| ahhh....as we always suspected.....
|
| http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 129) Sun, Apr 16, 2006 - 11:24:36 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| This guy is always very thought provoking:
|
| http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.p?ref=/hanson/hanson200604130
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 130) Sun, Apr 16, 2006 - 11:47:53 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmm....
|
| http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn09.html
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 131) Mon, Apr 17, 2006 - 2:15:12 pm 
Š| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Arachne v1.90 has been released.
|
| As always,
| it may be downloaded via the link on the front page of my web site.
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/
|
| As indicated there on the front page... core.exe is by Joe da Silva.
|
| Enjoy.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 132) Mon, Apr 17, 2006 - 5:43:14 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| hmmmmm indeed, it's about the same here in Kanistan.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 133) Mon, Apr 17, 2006 - 6:27:24 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn....yes...<g>....thank you.....<g g g>
| ...
| ..
| Ray....Steyn is always entertaining...AND...he always seems to be "spot
| on".....
| ..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 134) Mon, Apr 17, 2006 - 8:56:20 pm 
|
| ray>
| Interesting how often the best, and most acsessible wisdom on the 
| planet is to be had from cometators, columnists, and comics, *not*
| from politicians, pundits and proffessors.
|
| ...
|
| hey, I like that :-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 135) Mon, Apr 17, 2006 - 8:59:01 pm 
|
Š| gregy>
| hmmmm...practicing our alliteration, are we....????
| ..
| <g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 136) Mon, Apr 17, 2006 - 10:04:41 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| scroll down....
|
| http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/979
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 137) Mon, Apr 17, 2006 - 11:42:16 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| The incomparible Hitch....
|
| http://www.slate.com/id/2140058/fr/nl
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 138) Tue, Apr 18, 2006 - 12:23:43 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| and, again....
|
| http://www.slate.com/id/2139609/
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 139) Tue, Apr 18, 2006 - 12:31:53 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| another...
|
| http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200604170640.asp
|
|
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 140) Tue, Apr 18, 2006 - 6:39:26 pm 
|
| ray>
| So are the 'climate experts' above credible? or should they be 
| given your usual denunciations as scandal mongers and cheats?
| What if some of them used to believe in GW but now are moderating
| their views based on continuing research? Seems to me a charlatan
| is *always* a charlatan regardless of which side of the fence he's
| on. OTOH, an honest scientist should be respected as such, *especialy*
| when he is the first to admit the changes mandated by further 
| research. This is why I don't slander folks who disagree with me --
| if they are cheats, then how can I accept their authority if/when
| they come over to my view? Do I keep company with fraud artists and
| grant suckers? Supposing those same scientists, given further
| research prove that CO2 is indeed causing a GHE? Do they become
| charlatans once again?
|
| How much better to give folks a bit of respect, the benefit of the
| doubt, as they say? Scientists are often wrong but the cool thing
| about science is that that sooner or latter it *admits* that it
| is wrong and moves ahead. I like it.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 141) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 2:08:15 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray...that's all very well and good.....let's give ole Hitler, et al
| "the benefit of the doubt"..then, shall we...??
| ...
| Re:..."admits" that it is wrong....???....the past two centuries have
| pretty much shown the opposite...."it" rarely admits that its dogma
| is wrong....what happens is a few heretics bust things up a little..
| ..(al la the Alvarezes with their "comets strike destroyed the
| dinosaurs")...and FORCE the "consensus" to change slightly...but..the
| main bunch of "scientistic dinosaurs" keep wallowing on their way...
| still lionized and feated, and still collecting awards and MONEY....
| ...
| so-called "science" as practiced widely in today's world....isn't...
| science, that is....
| ...
| However...there is a vast majority of "practicing engineers" and
| "practical physicists/geologists/archeologists/chemists/etc" who
| actually ARE practicing science....I mean REAL, experimental science..
| ...but...that's not true of the high-mucky-mucks and pook-wallas..
| ...
| ...and....most of these "globwaams" ARE of the latter breed...
| ...
|
|
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 142) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 2:12:36 am 
|
| gregy>
| So...no....I don't respect them...and I give them no slack....why...???
| ...because they are guilty of murdering multiple millions of people
| with their crank/hoax hypothesis and scams....
| ..
| I could give a whole list of examples...but...one will suffice..
| ...
| DDT.....
| ..
| and...because they rammed THAT hoax thru the "brand-spankin-new" U.S.
| EPA....they doomed millions of third world peons/serfs to death by
| malaria....
| ...and THAT'S just a percentage of the blood on their hands....
| ..
| ...so...DON'T enjoin me to "show them some respect".....I won't do it
| ...
| ....and I'm right....
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 143) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 3:38:24 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| Oh...NO..!!!....it's finally happening..!!!  "The Sky is Melting...The
| Sky is melting...!!!!
| .
| http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49797
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 144) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 3:40:35 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmm...
|
| http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49796
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 145) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 3:44:32 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| yep...gotta blame THIS on global warming.....too....
Š|
| http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/18/060418221440.ge1hwj2v.html
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 146) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 4:42:13 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| yup...another one to be enrolled under the EndangeredSpeciesAct...
| ...<g g g>
|
| http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/17/060417152551.0cz9tbn5.html
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 147) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 5:13:41 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| I think it's something in the air....no, maybe in the water...??.
| ..
| I mean....Al Galore is on the march, again...SERIOUSLY on the march...
| ...
| and, now...this....
|
| http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16958010%26method=full%26siteid=947
|
| oh, I forgot....we gotta blame it all on global warming.....
| ...
| ..and...
| ..
| on Bush..yeah...and Cheney, too....and Rove....and ....and....and..
| ...
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 148) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 5:32:11 am 
|
| Jake>
| Scientists & engineers everywhere: I salute you for your collective and
| individual efforts which allow me to live with greater comfort, safety
| and pleasure than would otherwise be the case. I acknowledge that many
| of you, as with any walk of life, may seek to maximize your personal
| gain. In most instances we applaud this, as the workings of market forces;
| in others we may question the value for (our) money you offer, even though
| we are unqualified to comment. Your place in the fabric of our society is
| integral. We hope and ask for the wisdom and guidance to make sensible use
Š| of the results of your efforts.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  149) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 5:52:13 am 
|
| gregy>
| kudos to Michael Faraday and Clerk Maxwell...eh....???
| ...
| I mean, without them, we wouldn't have the web......<g g g g>
| ...
| oh, and I had a slight involvement in three of the webs predecessors..
| ...slight, mind you....<g g g>
| ...
| (no need to bow....<g g g g>....).
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 150) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 6:16:29 am 
|
| Jake>
| Hehe, if you look back at the early days of the Royal Society, there
| were popular comic plays about the antics of those time-wasting, money-
| wasting proto-scientists. Usually they frittered away their own family
| fortunes.
| (Side-note: US authors sometimes refer to the Royal Society as if it was
| something quaint or regal. It's just a name they're unfamiliar with.
| Unlike Newton, Hooke, Boyle, Faraday, Maxwell, Kelvin, Berners-Lee etc.) 
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 151) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 6:49:34 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,     What the heck is a "pook walla"?
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 152) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 11:52:03 am 
|
| Jake>
| Maybe he meant "punkah-wallah", the guy who has chief responsibility
| for circulating hot air? <G>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  153) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 11:58:44 am 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| Oops, Newton et al (after all, he dabbled in non-scientific activities,
| and was a far better self-publicist than Hooke) can go to hell in a
| hand-cart, cos that silly ol' Royal Society has Jim Lovelock as a Fellow
Š| and provides reading matter such as this: <URL>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  154) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 2:25:35 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| Ok, but if they are all pook walla's then why post a URL quoting
| their letter saying that GW is overblown? You can't quote
| an authority that you yourself don't respect and expect to be
| taken seriously do you? Nor can you cherry pick: for GW - pook walla,
| anti GW - good fella ... automaticaly.
|
| As to science, sure, paradigms tend to become pseudo-religions, but
| every 100 years or so those paradigms tend to crumble, be patient!
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 155) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 2:30:58 pm 
|
| ray>
| Jake, too bad that link is to a pdf file, damned things. Is there
| a DOS translator for them?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 156) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 4:03:39 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,     I never recall hearing about "punkah-wallah", but it sounds
| like he holds an important position! <ggg>  I've only heard of
| Punksatoni Pete ( or whatever) the weather predicting ground hog 
| from Pennsylvania, USA...Hey, I wonder what his position is on
| Global Warming? <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 157) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 5:00:05 pm 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| Gregy may have seen "It aint half hot Mum" 1970s BBC-TV comedy series
| about an army entertainment troup in WWII India or Burma. The punkah-
| wallah had to sit all day pulling a string to operate a trapdoor-style
| air wafter.
|
| I got less than halfway thru reformatting the RoyalSoc PDF before getting
| distracted for the evening. What's done is at the link... 
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 158) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 5:27:49 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Ray,
|
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/apm/ara-pdf.apm
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 159) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 5:28:46 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Eric,
|
| find:"punkah-wallah"
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 160) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 9:35:47 pm 
|
| gregy>
| yeah...but...I coined pook-walla...which is a denigratory degradation
| of the original term.....I mean...un-spit-on-able....<g g g>
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 161) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 9:40:31 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Ray....I posted a link to a news article that I thought was pertinent.
| ...
| FWIW...that link called them "experts"....my hackles immediately went up
| ...although it may NOT have been their fault...but the fault of the
| stupid MainLeftStreamMedia flack who was doing the reporting...
| ...
| However....I have the RIGHT to post links to who/what I think is TRUE
| ...I reject the insintuation that I'm required to post globwaam garbage
| and nonsense...in some misguided requirement for me to be "evenhanded"
| ...
| ...and...the point I was making with that link was, "It ain't ALL the
| ''consensus'' after all, is it"....so there..!!!
| ...
| <g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 162) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 9:44:32 pm 
Š|
| gregy>
| Jake....I haven't downloaded the .pdf, yet...maybe later....but, from
| the introductory HTML blurb, it sounds like that good ole Royal Society
| has decided to crank up their propaganda machine another notch...just
| so we all get the REAL story (the story according to THEM, that is)...
| ...
| However...just one small point....that intro-blurb complains that some
| have impugned the "scientists" as having overhyped this global disaster
| ....
| ...he he...the premier of those fellas has ALREADY admitted that, yes,
| they've overblown their statements about it, just so they could "get 
| their voice heard".....(ref....Mann's recent statement, which is
| floating around the web)....
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 163) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 10:04:44 pm 
|
| gregy>
| I think this is occasion to restate my (and similar others') stand:
| 1.  Global Warming appears to be happening.  However, the data only show
| a very slight warming up through 1997, thereafter none.
| 2.  This apparent slight temperature rise, by the recorded data, seems
| to have been from 1900-1945.
| 3.  This upward trend showed a decreasing temperature from 1945-1975
| (which caused the current "Hot-hot-crazies" lot to holler "New Icd Age"
| during the late 60s, early 70s)
| 4.  The trend from 1975-1997 again seemed point upward....since 1997,
| not...
| 5.  Given that comparison of climate data with that of the period known
| as the "Medieval Warm Period" shows that we have not yet recovered back
| to that level of temperatures;
| 6.  Given that that "Medieval Warm Period" was followed by the "Little
| Ice Age"..which we are classed as coming out of around 1870 (I pick a
| date slightly earlier - circa 1850-60)
| 7.  Given that, at sometime in the past, where I'm sitting (and where
| Glenn's sitting) was covered by a massive ice sheet, which is not NOW
| in existence.
| 8.  Taking all those givens (and a bunch of smaller additional givens)
| It is most reasonable to conclude:
| CONCLUSION:
| 1.  Have warmed up during human history, and within semi-recent history.
| 2.  This warming was NOT caused by man-generated "green-burp-gazz"
| emanating from the nether-orfices of mankind or its automobiles, or
| industrial installations.
| 3.  This apparent warming trend is continuation of a natural trend which
| is, overall, "a good thing"....
| 4.  This apparent warming trend is not controllable by mankind, and any
| attempt to propagate "hate humanity" sentiment is pseudo-science (at
| best) and should be subject to criminal liabilities/penalties (but it
| probably won't be...since we've shown a decided squishiness toward
| holding folks accountable for their ideas/actions)...
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 164) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 10:09:54 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Oh, lest you try to gig me about "..holding folks accountable for their
| ideas/actions.."....remember that ideas have consequences.....and I'm
| sure that you'd like to go back and hold old Adolf accountable for his
| ideas BEFORE he had the opportunity to put them into practice....
| ...and...old Lenin and Stalin and Mao...???....their ideas weren't
| actionable (or shouldn't have been actionable...???)....???
| ....
| However...I'm not propounding lynching....just refutation...<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 165) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 10:18:26 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| yep...women sure were "better off" under Saddam...or so claims the U.N.
|
| http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/19/120314.shtml
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 166) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 10:50:43 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| ah...a nice bouquet...with the rose at the top.....<g g g>
|
| http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14178&o=ANN001
| http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14113
| http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14112
| http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14129
| http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14128
| http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14114
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 167) Wed, Apr 19, 2006 - 10:53:52 pm 
|
| ray>
| Glenn,
|
| Tx for link, I'll grab that tomorrow.
|
Š| Gregy,
|
| Nope, I don't expect you to be 'even handed' with things you
| think are wrong, just fair. What I was ribbing you about was the
| use of 'experts' when it suits you and the dissing of the same
| body of people when they don't share your view. IMO the most 
| important ingredient in a civil and progessive society is the
| ability of people to disagree and still be respectful of the
| other person. When we reach the point where disagreement destroys
| respect, then civil society is in grave danger.
|
| Civil society is in grave danger.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 168) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 5:33:46 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As mall point about respect.
|
| Respect must be earned. It is not bestowed upon someone blindly.
|
| These so-called 'experts' have done nothing to earn my respect.
|
| Quite the contrary... with their constant misuse and abuse of power
| they have earned my contempt.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 169) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 7:47:24 pm 
|
| gregy>
| amen......
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 170) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 9:18:44 pm 
|
| ray>
| Yeah, but somehow that's not the point. Hard to explain ... worth
| clarifying ... It's not that fools, charlatans, frauds and
| scandalmongers 'should be respected' na that's not it. Perhaps it's
| that we should, as civilized men, be slow to attack the person and
| rather confine ourselves to dealing with the point at issue itself --
| let the *facts* do the damning.
|
| For example, in the GW discussion we've had, I myself found my view
| being changed, not by shrill ad-hominems, but, on the contrary, the
| more mild the tone, the more convincing the argument -- one is not
| distracted by personal attacks and extreme emotions, and the
| 'data speaks for itself'.  If I come across a phoney or a cheat, I 
| find it more civilized and more elegant, not to scream THAT MAN IS
Š| A CHEAT, but rather to simply expose the fraud and then walk away 
| smiling.  Besides, it's dangerous to asume that anyone who 
| disagees with you is a rotten guy, maybe he's honesly mistaken, and
| if you don't attack him personaly, he might just come round by your
| quiet persuasion ... or, (infalible people excepted) there is 
| always the chance that it is you and me who turn out to be mistaken
| and *we* will be the ones persuaded to change our view.
|
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 171) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 9:29:12 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Yes, I agree.
|
| My only point is that I can not feel respect for anyone who has not
| earned that respect.
|
| Regardless of who they are or what they say.
|
| You have earned my respect.
|
| Gregy has earned my respect.
|
| Joe, Michal, Vladimir, Michael, Christof, Laaca et al have _ALL_
| earned my respect.
|
| I cannot feel respect for someone I have not met and whom has done
| nothing to earn my respect.
|
| Respect must be earned.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 172) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 9:34:48 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As for attacking someone 'personally'.
|
| I have never and will never attack any of the aforementioned
| 'expetrs on GW' personally.
|
| This is for the simply reason that I have not and will never meet any of
| them personally.
|
| In-order-to attack soneone personally... you must have met them personally.
|
| I have and will continue to attack their mis-conclusions and thier
| mis-reporting of the data at-hand.
|
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 173) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 10:16:21 pm 
|
| ray>
| That's cool. The only thing more I could add it that 'respect'
| has several levels and motivations. Gregy has/had to show 'repect'
| to a superior even if he knows that person to be a nitwit. I agree
| completely when using the word in its 'highest' form. But 'civil'
| respect is just the habit that civilized people have of behaving
| decently toward one another, and non-provoctitavely, that makes it 
| possible for us to live together, we loose it at our peril.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 174) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 10:18:56 pm 
|
| gregy>
| yeah..Ray...and me in spades....
| ..
| Have I attacked anyone of "them" for the color of their ties...???
| ...
| Or, for the shape of their nose...???
| ...
| Or, color of their skin...???
| ...
| Or, have I attacked and disparaged them for the "(mis)shape of their
| stupid, fraudulent ideas and hysterical statements" (not to mention
| the actual damage/death their scam-ideas cause to other humans)...
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 175) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 10:22:22 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Ray....again....Are you supposing I should show ole Adolf "due respect"
| or even "any respect"....???
| ...
| When I see Hitler in modern guise....I call him for what he is...so..
| ..I have to tell you, again....I disagree with you about "respecting
| people I disagree with" when I know they are dangerously wrong, and
| their track record shows they are doing their "wrongness" deliberately
| to achieve their own "good agenda".....
| ...
| I refuse.....!!!!
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 176) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 10:36:30 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| Now, these folks are touting themselves as "experts"...they just lay
| out the facts:
|
| http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192544,00.html
|
| At this second one, authorization is required.  Just enter your
| email address and some kind of "password"....I don't think I'm even
| registered there.....<g g g>
|
| http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 177) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 10:37:19 pm 
|
| gregy>
| oops...correction "...now these folks areN'T....etc"
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 178) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 10:49:54 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
|
| http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5429
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 179) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 11:46:07 pm 
|
| gregy>
| On what the general, overall credibility of the MainLeftStreamMedia
| is:
|
| http://www.aim.org/aim_report/4503_0_4_0_C/
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 180) Thu, Apr 20, 2006 - 11:46:35 pm 
|
| gregy>
| And...to their performance as pertains to the "globwaam" hysteria:
|
| http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/4508_0_2_0_C/
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 181) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 8:38:24 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,      The masses exist on a different logic of their own. <ggg>
| They don't want to use your "logical standards". They don't want
| to "think/perform" in a scientific way! <ggg>   Those of us who
| even pretend to think/perform by a "logical/scientific" standard
| are ...made fun of....called geeks..."way out"....used for raising
| the audience of late night talk shows but largely ignored when
| it comes to the "every day running" of the country.  Right now.
| the whole country is pouring chemicals on their grass and then
| go inside to read about the "poor, polluted, state" of our
| water supply in the daily news. <ggg>  They are only interested
| in "science" when it raises/lowers their income or gives
| them text messaging or computer games or harder "dicks". 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 182) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 2:31:14 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| Hitler wasn't a scientist! Lousy comparison. But we've about flogged
| this to death, all I can say is I personaly am more persuaded by
| calm evidence than by calling people who disagree with you every 
| possible insult. For myself, that just makes me wonder why you need
| to resort to emotionalism. I'd be more persuaded by a more 
| data driven perspective. For me, calling every scientist who
| is concerned about the climate a fraud is a bit like Adolf calling
| every Jew an enemy of Germany. Myself I'm quite sure that the bulk
| of the scientists who are concerned about the climate are acting in
| good faith and I resent them being ridiculed.
|
| My point is just that I myself am *less* persuaded by this sort of
| aproach, which is too bad if you turn out to be right. One should use
| the most effective methods no? Thinking about what Eric said, it seems
| to me that the antidote for bad science and other sub-civilized
| behaviour is not more of the same, but rather a extra special 
| effort to return the debate to a 'resectful' level.
|
| ... or, as is increasingly the case, the left and the right can just
| keep sling mud and insults at each other and driving a deeper and
| deeper canyon between their camps to the point where democracy 
| colapsess totaly for lack of middle ground ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 183) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 4:12:37 pm 
|
| Eric>
Š| Ray,    There will always be a middle ground because there will always
| be those like me who like to watch the mudd flinging. <ggg>  But,
| I don't much like being the flinger or the flingee. <ggg> And when
| either side goes too far afield then they become the objects
| of ridicule and the butts of the latest jokes.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 184) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 5:46:05 pm 
|
| ray>
| Eric,
|
| Yeah, but you've gotta admit that the middle ground is shrinking.
| My understanding of democracy is that it *only* works when most
| folks are in the middle -- it prevents the extremists from finding
| a place to fissure society, but when society looks like a dumb-bell
| -- most folks at either end with just you and me in the middle, 
| things can fracture, don't you agree? I have friends who are as
| hard left as Gregy is hard right and the manner of speaking is 
| 'identical but opposite' if you get me, same lack of respect, same
| thinking that 'they' are evil-and-must-be-stopped-at-all-costs.
|
| "The right wing are taking over, they are intent on destroying 
| democracy, they want all power and money in the hands of a small,
| global kleptocracy. They are fundamentalist kooks who are anti-science
| anti human rights and anti environment. They must be stopped before 
| the US becomes a Christian-Taliban fundamentalist theocracy!"
|
| How can people like that, and people like Gregy, share the same 
| country? When I compare my friend Gregy to my leftist friends, I find
| that they are all well intentioned, but because they have no
| respect for the integrity of the 'other side' they are all prepared to
| take extreme measures to stop the ultimate evil of the other side
| from 'taking over'. It's not healthy.
|
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 185) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 6:16:49 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Where did you get the idea that 'science'
| has anything at-all in common with 'democracy' ????
|
| <ggggggggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 186) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 7:34:50 pm 
|
Š| Eric>
| glennmcc,   In the words of Former President Clinton, "What is your 
| definition of "science"?  Scientic "beliefs" have always been an
| expression of the majority of the "powerful" people at any 
| particular time in history. The majority of the masses tend to 
| agree with the "power" majority.  For example, the FDA just decreed
| that Maryjane has no PROVEN beneficial effect as a medication.
| Would you say that this is a politically motivated statement
| or a scientifically motivated statement.  I vote for a democratically
| decided politically motivated  scientific statement.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 187) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 7:38:28 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| OK.... your vote has been cast.
|
| We will now see if 'democracy' wins.
|
| <ggggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 188) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 7:51:29 pm 
|
| gregy>
| "Hitler wasn't a scientist! Lousy comparison. But we've about flogged.."
| "...data driven perspective. For me, calling every scientist who
| is concerned about the climate a fraud is a bit like Adolf calling..."
| ...
| Ray...anyone who proclaims false statements, claims those statements
| are "the scientific consensus"....and does this "to get their point
| noticed/accross" and to "advance their agenda"....because "their
| agenda" is the holy one...
| ...
| That person is tatamont to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Saddam, etc, etc
| ..et al
| ...
| I don't care whether or not said person labels himself a "scientist"
| ...he is NOT....!!!!  Not be the wildest stretch of the imagination
| can he be considered anything other than a fraud and charlatan...
| ...
| You mistake the people I call frauds for actual scientists....your error
| ...
| And...I do NOT label "honest disagree-ers" as frauds.  I disagree with
| Bjorn Lomborg on a host of items...but...he actually appears to be an
| honest environmentalist.....such people I appreciate and can/will talk
| to...
| ...but...people like Mann, et al.....it isn't that they haven't earned
| my respect (like Glenn says)....it is that THEIR performance, THEIR
| lies, THEIR fraud....has earned my total dispite and disrespect...and..
| sorry....once Hitler has shown his colors....there's no giving him 
| another chance...
Š| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 189) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 7:55:40 pm 
|
| gregy>
| And...as for your "leftist" friends....I'm sorry for their poor, 
| unintelligent, brainwashedness....I have compassion on their poverty..
| ...but....I have NO sympathy for them.....
| ...
| They've sucked up a philosophy that's proven to be sadly and badly
| WRONG....and, if it was just harmless "wrong" then they could do as the
| Arabs say, and "go in their way."....
| ..
| Unfortunately....they are a danger to the human race in general, and to
| me and mine in particular.....so...I WILL oppose them, name them for
| what they are....and try to cancel out their political/social influence
| ...
| All strictly legal, by the way.....thru the ballot box...
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 190) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 7:59:38 pm 
|
| gregy>
| I'm not trying to beat up on you.....but I'll be hanged it you're gonna
| talk me into refraining from naming liers, liers, frauds as frauds, and
| charlatans as charlatans....I will NOT retreat into wishy-washy-ism...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 191) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 8:15:27 pm 
|
| ray>
| Hehehe, no one will EVER expect wishywashy nothin' from you ;-)
| Well, never mind, as a middle of the road guy with friends in both
| camps, I just hate to see this level of animosity and find myself
| most persuaded by the guys with the lowest emotional thermostat.
| I tend to feel that the threat is not left vs. right, but moderation
| vs. extremism and believe me, I'm just as worried about leftist
| extremism as by your kind. As for me, I try to see the facts
| *inspite* of the rhetoric, not because of it.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 192) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 8:58:46 pm 
Š|
| gregy>
| well, Ray....I luv ya....and I truely wish that you would be most
| persuaded by the FACTS, rather than the "lowest emotional thermostat"
| demeanor of leftist-enviro-nut-talists......<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 193) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 9:42:39 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| :P~~~~~~~~~.........<g g g g g g g>
|
| http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.p?ref=/goldberg/goldberg20060
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 194) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 9:46:36 pm 
|
| ray>
| Oh, Gregy, I'm not trying to tell you what to do! I'm just giving
| you feedback on what works with me and what doesn't, that's all.
| I mean, you seem to be a man with a mission when it comes to this
| stuff and I figure you'd be interested if you are getting your
| message across. I'm interested in the topic and as you've seen, my
| 'panic level' has dropped due to your and Glenn's input, but 
| it's your facts that have done it, whereas your ad hominems have
| tended to reduce not enhance the effectiveness of your argument.
| Feedback, that's all I'm doing.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 195) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 9:49:07 pm 
|
| ray>
| Oh, and it's the same with the lefty-enviro-pooka-wookas -- when
| they start foaming at the mouth they loose me, when they 
| keep their shirts on I find myself listening.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 196) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 9:52:42 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| Well, well, well.....who wooda thunk it...???  Unbelievable...!!!!!
|
| http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060420/sc_space/emotionalwiringdifferentinme
Š|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 197) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 9:53:53 pm 
|
| gregy>
| I hear ya, Ray....I'm just "pulling your chain"......<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 198) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 9:54:37 pm 
|
| ray>
| No one can say you aren't up on the topic, that's for sure!
| G'nite.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 199) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 9:59:55 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gotta love it. See? Science moves forward, however slowly. The
| day aproaches when, as a group, biologists and behavioral 
| researchers will actualy catch up with what normal folks have known
| since the Beginning, I may live to see it! ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 200) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 10:25:43 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| anOTHER one...unbelieveable..!!!...boy, these researchers are really
| goin' ALL OUT this week...!!!!
|
| http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192495,00.html
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 201) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 10:50:25 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| I am forced to ask.....
|
| How many hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars were wasted
| on those two research grants which have simply told us what we
Š| already knew to be true ????
|
| And how many more hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars will
| be wasted on new research grants to be done so that the findings
| of those 1st two studies can be either confirmed or dispelled ????
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 202) Fri, Apr 21, 2006 - 11:37:20 pm 
|
| gregy>
| WHATTTT....?!?!?!?!?!?....."...we already knew to be true ????".....
| ....????????
| ...
| We did....??????
| ....
| When did we did...???
| ...
| hmmmmm.....I mean...this MUST be NEW stuff, right...???  Otherwise,
| why would they research it....????
| ...
| hmmmm....I smell proggy-libs around there......they, of course, can't
| (or won't) remember what happened yesterday .....I mean, they
| wakey, wakey and it's a whooolllleeee new ballgame....THEY never said
| such a thing, yesterday....and if they did...why....just don't mention
| it...because they can't remember (remember those constant, "I don't
| recall...etc..etc" that the Climpfun Administration was famous for????)
| ..
| So, how can I answer your question(s) without causing you unbearable
| pessimism and depression.....????
| ....
| <g g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 203) Sat, Apr 22, 2006 - 9:37:40 am 
|
| ray>
| Weeell, as always the real problem is how to throw out the bathwater
| but keep the baby. IMHO there is no doubt at all that unimaginable
| amounts of money are being wasted by grant-suckers, tenured
| twits etc. The trick is to trim the fat without stopping the real
| research (including into climate!) Some noise will *always* exist
| so cutting buggets until there's no more waste means cutting the
| budget to 0. (I laugh at, say, anti-war protesters who won't pay, say,
| 30% of their taxes to protest military spending because thats the
| fraction that goes to the military -- but 30% of the remaining 70%
| *still* goes to the military).
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 204) Sat, Apr 22, 2006 - 11:44:48 am 
Š|
| Jake>
| If we already "know" something, it most likely ain't science,
| just some primitive gut feeling. Go ask Lewis Wolpert.
|
| Cooking the books to get the results that should be obtained
| has always gone on. Precious little science would take place
| without its practitioners knowing what they were aiming for.
| I was mightily p*ssed off at obtaining Avagadro's Number out
| by a factor of 10 or more at age 14. I in no way condone
| fraudulent misrepresentation of data, but the further you go
| in science or engineering the more you have to take on trust,
| and lab sessions can seem a waste of time.
|
| I get more p*ssed off at finger-wagging at supposed scroungers,
| if only because the TV public info slots here always point at
| people low down in the pecking order. Meanwhile Tony bLiar's wife
| is in the news over her hairdressing expenses and I repeat: surely
| the armed services have the biggest amount of fun at the taxpayers'
| expense (so long as they keep out of harm's way).
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  205) Sat, Apr 22, 2006 - 3:55:50 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"Weeell, as always the real problem is how to throw out the bathwater
| but keep the baby."
|
| Why do people insist upon turning simple tasks into dificult tasks ????
|
| Step 1) Remove baby from tub
| Step 2) Dry baby with clean towel
| Step 3) Dress baby in clean cloths
| Step 4) Put baby to bed in crib
| Step 5) Throw-out dirty bathwater
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 206) Sat, Apr 22, 2006 - 5:30:05 pm 
|
| ray>
| Jake,
|
| bLiar ... love it.
|
| Glenn,
|
| Yeah, but that takes five steps and it seems that that's too many
| for some nitwits. All or nothing solutions are so much more
| ideologicaly 'pure'. That's the problem with doctrinare leftists and
| doctrinare rightists -- both sides insist that everything is simple --
| just get 'them' out of the way and everything will be fine because
| all problems come from *them* -- and to compromise would only be 
Š| to admit sin into Eden.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 207) Sat, Apr 22, 2006 - 5:40:28 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Oooohhhh, I see.
|
| We need a 'single step' solution to the problem.
|
| Noooooo proooobleeemm dude....
|
| Step 1) Throw out all doctrinare leftists and doctrinare rightists with the 
|
|
| Problem solved.
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 208) Sat, Apr 22, 2006 - 7:34:24 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,     Any chemistry student who ever passed a lab course
| knows that the scientific approach is:
| 1. Figure out what the result of the experiment is supposed to be FIRST!
| 2. Run the experiment as fast as you can....damn the accuracy!
| 3. Figure out the FUDGE FACTOR! <ggg>
| 4. Write up the experiment, using the fudge factor, to get a good
| result, as predicted.
| 5. Don't make it look too perfect 'cause the instructor knows a
| perfect result is impossible!
|
| One time a lab partner and I did an experiment on LISAJOU figures
| and pendulums too perfect.  My partner was a neat freak and very
| talented at impecible model design and building. We turned in an
| impecible experiment write up after many long hours of work. We
| expected to be complemented and instead had our experiment returned
| with a C grade.  We were furious and went to talk to the instructor.
| He said that he looked at what we handed in and figured the results
| looked too good so he assumed we had drawn our Lisajou figures
| with a felt tip pen.  When we explained our procedures he appoligized
| and gave us an "A". He was one of my honest instructors. Unfortunately,
| some instructors/teachers/professors are too vain to admit they could
| ever make a mistake....I had some of those also!
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 209) Sat, Apr 22, 2006 - 9:53:46 pm 
Š|
| Eric>
| Jake,    Thinking of Chem Lab reminded me of stupid student 
| stunts like you posted on the testers board. The chem lab seemed
| to be the origin/impetus for stupid student stunts. One such stunt
| was done by my friend. He was the wizeguy who always finished his
| experiments early before anyone else. We were doing sodium fusion
| experiments and he finished early and left to walk about a block
| across campus before a passer-by pointed out to him that his pants
| leg was on fire. It was winter and cold and  he never noticed it.
| He had dropped a piece of sodium into his pants cuff which set his
| pants on fire.  By the time he got the fire out his pants leg was
| gone halfway up to his knee. <gggg>  Of course he had attracted
| quite an audience of on-lookers by the time he was done.  
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 210) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 5:14:13 am 
|
| Jake>
| <G>
|
| Just FYI the Avo's No. expt. was in Physics, by Brownian motion. My set
| was subject to an edjoocational expeeriment and we did "Nuffield" Physics
| (maybe directly sponsored by the car industry magnate?). It was all very
| experimental, so we spent a lot of time rolling small trolleys down slopes
| and banging them into each other to fully ingrain the basics of momentum,
| potential and kinetic energy etc.
|
| As a kid, you take on hundreds of years of science and maths per year of
| study and, in my case, not much seems to have stuck...
|
| But I'm quite good at making fudge!  
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|   211) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 9:40:29 am 
|
| ray>
|
| Glenn, re 207, now that's what I call thinking outside the box.
| It's interesting how the study of something as 'dry' as formal logic
| gives you a edge in doing just that, thinking outside the box,
| because you learn to consiously evaluate the hidden premises and
| parameters of the problem. As to political polarization and the
| problems it entails -- sheesh, let's not wait for one side or the
| other of the totalitarians to take over send everybody else to the
| gulag, let's us middle-roaders throw all of 'them' into the gulag
| first. Then we can resume the hard, dilemma ridden, compromise
| riddled task of muddling through (which is just what democracies are
| good at -- muddling through).
|
| Love the stories guys.
|
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 212) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 10:29:14 am 
|
| Eric>
| Ray,    The problem is.....when you eliminate the "far left" and
| the "far right" then those on the fringes of "middle roaders"
| become the "far left" and "far right".  The poles may be a little
| closer together, but...they don't go away! <ggg>  The voids always
| get filled! <ggg>  The "fars" are like the anchor men in tug of war.
| If the anchorman slips and falls then the next guy in front of him
| becomes the anchorman...and...it's the guys in the middle of the
| rope that get pulled into the mud first. The guys on the ends of
| the rope often don't even get their feet muddy 'cause the mud puddle
| gets filled up with the middle guys and there is no more room for
| the guys at the end.  And the guys in the middle on both sides usually
| share the mud as the tug of war occilates back and forth! <ggg> 
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 213) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 1:00:33 pm 
|
| ray>
| You are a wise man Eric.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 214) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 1:30:25 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Get rid of the anchor men...
| all remaining participants let go of the rope...
| no-one gets muddy...
| problem solved.
|
| <ggggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 215) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 4:52:42 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    Ah, but here's the fallicy with your solution....
| someone has to have the power to convince the masses and 
| orchestrate the release....the participants can't just willy
| nilly let go of the rope when they get moved to do so...or...
| someone gets muddy....If the masses release simultaneously...then...
| as one anchorman approaches the mud his resolve usually dissolves and
| he lets go...and the "winning" anchorman has lost his support...but
| whoever orchestrated the release now has the power...and...what are
Š| his intentions?  
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 216) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 5:30:25 pm 
|
| Jake>
| To orchestrate the release -- bring on the dancing girls!
|
| Women always have the whip-hand <G>
|
| As to their intentions.... ???
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  217) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 6:31:49 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Jake has the right idea.
|
| Bring on the dancing girls !!!!
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 218) Sun, Apr 23, 2006 - 8:52:26 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Hey Guys,   I'm not foolish enough to refute the power of the
| dancing girls...but...Do they have a leader?  Be careful that
| they're not just a distraction! <ggg>    Be advised....watch
| your backs while they're dancing! <ggg>  And be suspicious
| when they tell you to look into their eyes! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 219) Mon, Apr 24, 2006 - 1:45:36 am 
|
| Jake>
| Occasionally a leader is revealed, and it gets scarey (remember Mrs Thatcher
| but mostly they're like ants -- an unstoppable force that gets whatever it
| wants done. There's no resistance, cos they got some prominent males under
| their control to ban DDT...
|
| Ooh-err, Mrs Thatcher dancing <shudder>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  220) Mon, Apr 24, 2006 - 11:32:41 am 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,  
|
Š| There once was a house with a leak
| That appeared in the news every week
| But the thatcher did thatch
| As Mrs. Thatcher danced
| And the neighbors all oo'd ah'd and eek'd
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 221) Mon, Apr 24, 2006 - 2:49:58 pm 
|
| Jake>
| :-)
|
| Alan Alda interviewed today, said that to call someone a Liberal
| these days was worse than calling `em a Commie way back when.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  222) Mon, Apr 24, 2006 - 3:05:11 pm 
|
| ray>
| Me, I'm a conservative socialist.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 223) Mon, Apr 24, 2006 - 4:48:10 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| glennmcc == anarchist
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 224) Mon, Apr 24, 2006 - 6:48:37 pm 
|
| ray>
| You mean a *real* one? ... no government at all?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 225) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 12:23:52 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray....socialism IS communism....just tarted up a bit.....<gg  g>
| ...
| sorta like the "dancing girls"....keeps your mind off what's really
| about....<g g g>
| ...
| <gregy === millenial kingdom-er>.........<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
Š|
| 226) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 1:26:32 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmmm.....
|
| http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110008277
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 227) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 7:04:18 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,     Re: Millenial Kingdom-er ......That could make you almost
| anything! <ggg>  Based on what I read in Wikipedia, There are many
| different interpretations of what a Millenial Kingdom-r might be.
| Hitler's name and the 3rd Reich even come up. And Ebay says:
|
| "Millenial Kingdom - You can find anything you want on Ebay" 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 228) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 8:45:12 am 
|
| Jake>
| Re: #225
|
| Give to Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  229) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 2:58:17 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| Nope, Socialism isn't Communism anymore than Repulicans are Democrats.
| The two grade into each other of course, just as the polite right
| grades into facsism, but the biggest difference is that commies believe
| in dictatorship but social dems, like me, believe that the people
| must be free to choose the government of their choice -- even GWB, 
| God help us.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 230) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 3:04:13 pm 
|
| ray>
| The article, looked at logicaly seems to say:
Š|
| -the environment is better than it was
| -the above improvement is mosty due to the fact that the greens
|  convinced people that things needed to change by warning them of
|  the consequenses if they didn't change.
| -the greens are still warning people they need to change.
| -the previous predictions of calamity didn't come true.
| -ERGO: the greens are F.O.S.
|
| But a logician would point out that the previous predictions didn't
| come true *because* they were listened to and action was taken
| ERGO: we should listen to the greens to prevent future calamity.
|
| The argument backfires.
|
|  
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 231) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 4:48:29 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"Nope, Socialism isn't Communism anymore than Repulicans are Democrats."
|
| Ahhhh, quite correct.
|
| Republicans practice "spend, spend, spend.... tax, tax, tax"
|
| Where-as
| Democrats practice "tax, tax, tax ... spend, spend, spend".
|
| Socialism practices "100% governmental controll of every aspect of life"
|
| Where-as
| Communism practices "every aspect of life 100% within governmental controll"
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 232) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 6:10:16 pm 
|
| ray>
| He He, had to laugh.
|
| But you make a valid point, the problem with socialism is that it 
| tends to degenerate into 'nanny statism' that's why we convervative
| socialists are always running around trying to keep our 'own 
| people' under control. They tend to mean well, but can go quite
| whacko if you let them. It isn't easy :(
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 233) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 6:33:32 pm 
Š|
| glennmcc>
| So why continue to fight a losing battle ?
|
| Eliminate the strife by eliminating the cause of the strife.
|
| Abolish the government and there is no longer any reason to attempt
| to do what can't be done.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 234) Tue, Apr 25, 2006 - 9:15:25 pm 
|
| ray>
| Who paves the roads? 
| Is there a police force?
| Army?
| Courts? ... hmmm, should get rid of those anyway ;-)
|
| And it *can* be done, don't let the last 50 years or so 
| discourage you ;-)))
|
| Gregy???
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 235) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 12:20:56 am 
|
| gregy>
| hmmm...I hafta think on how to respond.....to Glenn, too...
| ...
| I do know...given the non-perfect nature of mankind...that perfection
| is NEVER possible....
| ...
| ..however...that doesn't excuse us from making the effort, and, at
| least, making things as "good as we can"....but...here commies have a
| far different view of "good as we can" than I do.....<g g g>
| ...
| (and, of course, as I said, commies are just "out of the closet" 
| socialists......<g g g g g>.....).....
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 236) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 1:42:54 am 
|
| gregy>
| "We are horribly dependent on foreign oil. But we shouldn't develop
| domestic oil or boost our refining capacity. We need a gas tax to wean
| Americans from foreign oil, but high gas prices are an outrage. We
| need alternative forms of energy, but we shouldn't use nuclear power.
| We need renewable, sustainable energy, unless it interfers with the
| view of rich liberal icons." (Jonah Goldberg, NationalReviewOnline..
Š| Corner)..
|  
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 237) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 1:43:34 am 
|
| gregy>
| Guess which parties ideas those are....????
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 238) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 7:07:40 am 
|
| ray>
| Democrat?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 239) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 8:15:43 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,     Did you read #227
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 240) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 9:15:12 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...just to maintain my "aura of mystery"...I refuse to clarify..
| ...<g g g >
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 241) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 10:25:53 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmm...interesting....
|
| http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/dastych022706.htm
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 242) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 11:05:12 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
Š| ya gotta see it, to believe it....!!!!
|
| http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/268168_shootingfollow27.html
| http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20060427/226CapitolHillGun_1.jpg
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 243) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 11:12:46 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| uhhh...Ray....???
|
| http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=24&art_id=vn200604270158568
|
| Socialists....?????
| ...
| <g g g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 244) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 11:28:38 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,    Re: #241 .... What's the idea of posting a link to
| this "juicy Lucy" crap "free" gifts! <gggg> The damn popups
| wouldn't stop... eeeeeeek!! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  245) Thu, Apr 27, 2006 - 11:36:54 pm 
|
| gregy>
| uuhhhmmmm....#241...???...."...this "juicy Lucy" crap "free" gifts!..."
| ...???...."popups"....???
| ....
| Eric...ErrrrICK..!!!....you've been playing with Wingedoze Blow$er
| again.....<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 246) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 12:03:45 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| I wonder......nope...not....I'll wonder if this one will make YOU
| wonder.....<g g g>
|
| http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/articles/0426marissa0
Š|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 247) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 12:37:58 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,    you got a point there. <ggg>  I was using my Juno software, so,
| I was on Intentional Exploder when I clicked your link.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  248) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 12:58:12 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,      What am I supposed to be wondering about?  Marissa?
| Nothing new there....typical American.....I just wonder where they
| get all the money from! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  249) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 1:05:02 am 
|
| gregy>
| I think she said, somewhere in the article, that her dad owned three
| (count 'em, three) car dealerships.....<g g g g>
| ...
| I think I also remember her saying "I get everything I want."...or words
| to that effect....<g g g>
| ..
| That's typical....???
| ...
| gee, and we're constantly being told how bad the american people have
| it....the economy and all, you know...???
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 250) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 1:14:11 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,     Fair fight??    A six shooter against two Glocks !
| They didn't say how many bullets were discharged from the
| six-shooter. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  251) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 1:17:44 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,    It's the masses that have it bad.....not the car dealers!
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 252) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 1:28:45 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,    It's been my experience that anybody who deals in cars
| gets his money by methods that I am ashamed to use.  I can not deal
| with people, and don't want to, the way they do.  It's not an easy
| business but there's a lot of money to be made if you aren't ashamed
| to use the "right" tactics!
|  
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|   253) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 2:03:33 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| double hmmmmmmm......
|
| http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5447
| http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4970&search=Wilson
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 254) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 2:05:58 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....remember....it ain't supposed to be a "fair fight"...when it's
| cops confronting "bad guy"......<g g g g>
| ...
| ...and...we know that, at least, one round was discharged from the six
| shooter....backward.....<g g g g>
| ...
| ...and...thankfully, the six-shooter shooter didn't survice the
| encounter.....
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 255) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 2:08:15 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....as in "would you buy a used car from this man...???"....<g g g>
| ...
| he he...I have to confess that, "once upon a time, in a land far away.."
| ...I was an Account Executive in a Bucket Shop.....<g g g>
| ...
| I actually made my clients lotsa money...(didn't make myself rich, 
| though).....<g g g>
|
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 256) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 11:52:50 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,     Please explain "account executive in a bucket shop".
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  257) Fri, Apr 28, 2006 - 5:25:22 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| There is one thing the _we_ have which we must get rid of if we want to get 
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| .
| Our consciences.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 258) Sat, Apr 29, 2006 - 8:26:02 am 
Š|
| ray>
| Yup, most rich people are scoundrels, not all by any means, but most.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 259) Sat, Apr 29, 2006 - 3:21:35 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    There's that word "science" again....con-science...
| we can't get away from it! <ggggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 260) Sat, Apr 29, 2006 - 4:50:56 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Yep...
|
| And those who try to 'con' you with their phony 'science' ...
|
| have no conscience.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 261) Sat, Apr 29, 2006 - 10:40:23 pm 
|
| ray>
| Au contraire! I think most eco-extremist types def. have consciences,
| probably too much so to the point where they let their conscientiousness
| and morality vis. the state of the planet cloud their more sober
| scientific side. Take GW, I'm sure that most of the people who are
| on the bandwagon really do think they are doing good, but they let
| their zeal, and need to protect the rest of us from ourselves, 
| carry them away. .... hmmm .... Nope you are right, I'm confusing
| conscience with good intentions -- not the same thing. Ones
| C. should infact guard one *against* acting dishonestly, even if
| it seems to be in a good cause. As my dad says: "The road to Hell
| is paved with good intentions." and might I add "With soiled
| consciences."
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 262) Sun, Apr 30, 2006 - 3:07:49 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric.....Arachne does "define:bucket shop"....just fine....try the
| 2nd/3rd definitions.....<g g g g>
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 263) Sun, Apr 30, 2006 - 9:09:04 am 
|
| ray>
| You in some sleazy stock outfit??? Can't believe that.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 264) Sun, Apr 30, 2006 - 2:30:39 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,     That was my understanding of "bucket shop" but it didn't
| seem to correlate with car dealers. <ggg> I guess you were saying
| "same morals...different merchandise". <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 265) Sun, Apr 30, 2006 - 3:21:18 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ray,
|
| re: post 261
|
| Yep... you got it.
|
| "....conscience with good intentions -- not the same thing."
|
| Exactly correct.
|
| As is this exactly correct as-well...
|
| "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
| and might I add "With soiled consciences."
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 266) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 4:51:32 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| Here..!!!  This is what I was saying about this whole globwaam
| originating with that vicious, stupid fraud Sagan....and his need to
| explain-away the high heat of Venus...
| ...
| http://www.freemarketproject.org/news/2006/news20060420b.asp
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 267) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:18:44 am 
Š| URL
|
| Jake>
| Here's the Washington Post article. Any reason for not linking to it (maybe 
| for users of US ISPs?).
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  268) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:58:24 am 
|
| Jake>
| A crap, hysterical article, Gregy. I see no mention of Sagan, just the compu
| say you don't trust.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  269) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 10:12:21 am 
|
| Jake>
| Sorry, not my usual polite self <G>
|
| Crap weekend of broken promises and server migration problems.
|
| Oh, it's meant to be a long holiday weekend here...
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  270) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 2:25:18 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Jake....the "mention" of Sagan IS those allusions to "tipping point(s)"
| and "runaway greenhouse" effects for the planet Venus.....he is the sole
| origin for that stupidity....
| ...
| Read my previous rants about him......<g g g g>
| ...
| And, then, if you have any interest, go study his shameful captaining
| of the asault on Velikovsky.....but...be prepared for loooonnnngggg
| sessions of reading.....<g g g g>
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 271) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 2:26:58 pm 
|
| gregy>
| No, I didn't (don't) link to some things, here, when there are clear
| links within the link I do provide....or....maybe I never considered
| the WashComPost article germane to my point...
| ...
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 272) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 3:44:35 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Any system can have a tipping point with the "wrong" set of inputs. It's ext
| to assume that Mankind can produce an input powerful to affect life on Earth
| other hand to assume that we CAN'T.
|
| When you mentioned Velikovsky before, all I found was that he appears to hav
| a renegade nutter. I was too young or not around for him to have impacted on
| life <G>
|
| Your linked-to article selectively quotes for its own purposes and I'm sure 
| that reading the sources rather than some secondhand piece is part of the re
| unless you are pre-sold on a particular viewpoint. At this remove I see no n
| ridicule the Washington Post and would ask you to point to specific instance
| in the two articles.
|
| http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/09/AR2006040900
|
| http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/19/AR2006041902
|
| The opening sentence of the 2nd article is too cut & dried even for me, but 
| Govt's policy and yours, I think. You wouldn't expect, for the sake of balan
| and science writer to give credence to the Flat Earthists. Heck, they might 
| "Intelligent Design" <G>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  273) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 4:39:56 pm 
|
| ray>
| My you are in a short mood Jake ;-)
|
| But you should read Velikovsky for yourself, even if you don't
| swallow all his theories; the man was a brilliant and original
| thinker and even if he is proven wrong, his ideas stimulated a
| huge amount of thinking and research. In fact, it's past time
| I myself reread his work.
|
| BTW I'm an ID guy, and an active participant in the movement.
| No offence tho, we understand that the forces of Orthodoxy are
| in such a state of panic given the overwhelming power of our
| arguments, that their best tool for stopping us is insult and
| ad hominems and the increasingly desperate attempt to prevent us 
| from making our case, especialy to students (wouldn't want kids
| in science class to be exposed to anything that might cause them to
| question Orthodoxy, now would we?)
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 274) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 4:59:30 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Yup, bad mood because guys that are certainly more knowledgeable
| than me (server admins etc) yet again show they can't complete
| what they say was necessary in the timespan suggested. Their
| decision to fiddle (a la Chernobyl) was taken with the "We know
| best attitude". Prior to that I got a call with no warning to
| do something yesterday and today, which meant working through
| a day and a night to prepare for something quite stressful in
| itself. I've been waiting like a pilot to scramble, only the
| call to action didn't materialize. I don't know what's happened,
| and part of the problem is an email service that's gone tits-up.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  275) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:00:24 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| ID == attempting to use 'science' to prove the existence of GOD.
|
| FYI.... no can do.
|
| GOD flat-out refuses to allow HIS existence to be proven.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 276) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:02:37 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| <Beavus & Butthead mode>
|
| He said 'tits'... ha ha, ha ha
|
| </Beavus & Butthead mode>
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 277) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:15:57 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Hu hu, hu hu hu hu... <G>
|
| Yeah, what's so intelligent about me having tits?
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  278) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:17:07 pm 
|
| ray>
| Glenn,
|
Š| Nope, ID has nothing whatsoever to say about God, formaly speaking.
| ID arguments simply demonstrate the inability of current evolutionary
| theory to explain complex systems. ID isn't a theory, it is 
| a *critique* of a theory. True, theists and such like tend to
| hover around the ID camp since our work *indirectly* supports their
| view, and they often pretend to be us to hide their adjendas. However,
| the fact remains that ID says nothing about who the 'designer' is,
| only that some complex systems *appear* to have been designed by
| default -- that is, there is no workable explanation otherwise.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 279) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:18:27 pm 
|
| Jake>
| TV prog about Darwin recently. He never said survival of the fittest.
| It was survival of the most apt... or fit for purpose.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  280) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:20:45 pm 
|
| ray>
| ID is open to:
|
| 1) an improved theory of evolution that can explain 'design'
| 2) 'assisted evolution'
| 3) some aliens having seeded life on Earth.
| 4) God
|
| ID doesn't say what the truth is, only that current theories
| are not adequate.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 281) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:22:10 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Humans love to see patterns. Keeps `em buying lottery tickets.
| Probably dates back to spotting grit and stones in among the
| grains and lentils.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  282) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:24:25 pm 
|
| ray>
| Right, Chuck was a good man and a fine scientist. There is little
| room to question what he proved: that species can adapt and change
| over time. What is in dispute is whether that mechanism is sufficient
| to explain 'big' changes and esp. the origin of life. (Chuck himself
| thought not).
Š|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 283) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:35:47 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| So.... since we can't yet explain it via the evolution theory....
| we set-aside that theory and attempt to explain it via the ID theory.
|
| And if evolution can't explain it here on earth... it can't ewxplain it
| on an alien planet either.
|
| So we must set-aside evolution for that alien planet as-well and again
| attempt to explain it via ID
|
| And the only possible definition of whom the inteligence might be in
| 'Inteligent Design' is....
|
| GOD (by whatever name you choose to give HIM or HER)
|
| So I repeat....
|
| No can do because GOD flat-out refuses to allow HIS existence to be proven.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 284) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 5:37:56 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As to ....
|
| 1) an improved theory of evolution that can explain 'design'
|
| By _who's_ design ????
|
|
| 2) 'assisted evolution'
|
|
| Assisted by _whom_ ?
|
| In both cases there _is_ only one answer.
|
| GOD
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 285) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:23:08 pm 
|
| ray>
| Since I spend so much time on ID, I'll quibble:
|
| We don't 'set aside' E we just recognize is't imperfections and
Š| try to get the word out that E isn't the only possible explanation.
| And ID *isn't* a theory, that's certain, it's a chalenge to a
| theory.
|
| And it does not follow that the weakness of E here precludes it
| working somewhere else where the chemistry is something we haven't
| even dreamed of -- this is unlikely to be sure, but it can't be
| ruled out. If it *could* be ruled out we would have a proof by
| exclusion of God's existance. Consider this thought experiment:
|
| We evolved. In a few hundred years we get around to seeding life on
| Mars. In a few billion years that life evolves (maybe with a bit
| of help over the hard parts from us) into sentiant beings. They
| were created even though we evolved. Ergo, the existance of 
| creation/design on one planet does not prove the impossiblity of
| evolution on another planet. (obviously if you posit that we were
| created the above thought experiment isn't needed).
|
| However, it is quite true that ID does 'point' to God rather
| strongly although this is not formaly part of the postulate.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 286) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:33:58 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ah ha !!!
|
| You just revealed yourself.
|
| "... They were created even though we evolved. Ergo, the existance of 
| creation/design...."
|
|
| The law of conservation of energy and matter states....
|
| Niether matter nor energy can be neither created nor destroyed.
| But rather can only be changed from one form to another.
|
| Creation == GOD
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 287) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:36:03 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| And you revealed yourself again in the next part.....
|
| "Ergo, the existance of creation/design on one planet...."
|
Š| Again.... creation == GOD
|
| MAN cannot create something from nothing.
|
| Only GOD can do that.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 288) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:39:48 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| And yet again in the last part.
|
| "However, it is quite true that ID does 'point' to God rather
| strongly although this is not formaly part of the postulate."
|
| Wether or not it is is 'formally' a part of the postulate...
| by strongly pointing to GOD as the designer and assistor, you _are_
| claiming that GOD created life rather than life evolving.
|
| Ergo, ID == creationism.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 289) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:45:34 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Jake....Re: 272....bash the WashComPost...???...moi...???....but, of
| course, mon ami....!!!!....they are emminently bashable....for most of
| their coverage.....totally slanted, and, even when they TRY to do a 
| balanced presentation, they can't shake/break their total left-lean
| habit patterns...
| ...
| So, give me no "try to be fair and balanced" with my disparagement of
| that rag.....<g g g>
| ...
| Re:  Velikovsky disproven.....???....my, my...what/where have you been
| reading, again....<g g g>....?????
|
| Re:  "Tipping Points"....Jake...I'm afraid you've drunk too deeply at
| that phoney computer-model well of your poor, dear old prof....that
| Lovelock guy...???
| ...
| Where, EVER did you get the idea that mankind can generate enough input
| into this massive earthsystem to push it into a "tipping point"....the
| inertia-sink is too great......can't be done.....even if we had a full
| scale nuclear battle between the biggies.....it wouldn't push the whole
| earth-sytem into a "tipping point"....might kill off a lot/most of the
| people, but, NO "tippint point" for the whole system....
| ...
| Witness (a thought experiment)....the reputed massive "comet-strike" 
| that supposedly wiped out the whoooollllleeee dinosaur population, way
| back when ....(now, I'm not disputing it...I'm just NOT promoting it..)
Š| ...so...that massive occurance musta been REALLLLL big, no...???
| ...
| So, just WHAT earth-system "tipping-point" occured from that catastrophe
| ...???  Don't say "dinosaur extinction"....because that did NOT cause
| a whole-system "tipping point" for the earth, al la the fraudulently
| proposed "tipping point" that supposedly "tipped" the planet Venus into
| "runaway greenhouse" disaster...
| ...
| I'm afraid you've sucked up too much of the "if butterflys in the
| Himalyas flap their widdle wings, it will cause hurricanes in the
| Atlantic."  nonsense.....and that's what the Gaia-nonsense leads to, is
| already at...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 290) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:47:52 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Don't get me wrong here though.
|
| I _do_ believe that the force in-play during evolution _is_ GOD HIMSELF.
|
| The difference is... I admit that I believe GOD created life.
|
| Note that I say 'believe'.
|
| Again... I admit that it _is_ a part of my religious beliefs.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 291) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:51:27 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| I do _not_ attempt to claim that we can _prove_ any of this because....
|
| GOD flat-out refuses to allow HIS existence to be proven.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 292) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:55:27 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn...Re: 283, et al....NO...you've sadly mistaken things....ID is NOT
| equated to "god"...
| ...
| You are the one conflating, here...
| ...
| ..and you can't just go, "ID..ho ho ho"....and dismiss it...because ID
| is NOT the crucial thing there...
| ...
| ID is only an end result.....it is the IC (irreducible complexity) from
| which ID is hypothesized that is the main point...
Š| ...
| Which point is, that "things" are way too complex to have "just
| happened"....
| ..
| Now, I'm gonna wait for you to rejoin something like, "But no REAL
| scientist believes in IC/ID," then I'm gonna laugh while you run
| yourself thru your own buzzsaw....<g g gg>
| ...
| (psssst...I have a "real scientist" up my sleave....and one who does NOT
| believe in "god" at all)......<g g g>.....hmmmm...in fact, I've two...
| ...he he he....and I'm recollecting more....but two should serve to
| give you a "good bash".....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 293) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 6:58:14 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn...!!!!....hi hi hi..!!!...<bump>.....<g g g>
| ...
| And, I agree from the standpoint of "no proof using the 'scientific
| method'".....aka...the laboratory-test method which is standard to 
| scientific enquiry....
| ..
| God isn't gonna be found in any test-tube-experiment....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 294) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:01:55 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
|
| Voltaire
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 295) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:04:03 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| And a few things that Einstein had to say about GOD
| (and other less important things) <ggg>
|
| http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 296) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:04:27 pm 
|
| gregy>
Š| ..but....IC says that things are too complex to have "just happened"
| ...and...this has been KNOWN since the neo-darwinian theory(s) was/were
| being formulated during the first half of the 20th century...way back in
| hmmmm...1936?...somewhere back there....when the foremost mathematicians
| got together with the foremost evolutionists at the Whistar Institute in
| Philidelphia....and the mathies TOLD the evolutes that it "just couldn't
| happen"...and provided mathematical proofs to back up their statements..
| ...and...the mathies weren't anti-evolutes....they were saying "there's
| problems"...and you evolutes needa come up with sompin else....'cause
| your current explains ain't feasible...
| ...
| Well, the evolutes squelched the mathies....and everyone went their
| separate ways....but...problem remained unresolved...resulting in the
| current resurgence....of IC, that is......and the evolutes prime
| response is, still, to squelch....but....now it ain't working...
| ....<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 297) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:06:39 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| One of my favorites....
|
| "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
|  and I'm not sure about the the universe."
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 298) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:07:19 pm 
|
| gregy>
| ah....I don't know if I'd quote ole Volt....after all, he also said that
| Christianity would be dead within fifty years of his time, and the Bible
| would be a "lost book"....
| ...
| So, 15 years after Ole Volt's demise....the European Bible Society were
| printing up LOTSa bibles....in Paris....on Voltaire's own presses.....
| which they'd bought from someone who'd bought them as firesale....
| ...<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 299) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:09:57 pm 
|
| gregy>
| and...I don't always agree with Einstein...remember, he refused to
| accept Quantum Theory....on the basis of "God doesn't play at dice"
| (i.e. doesn't use random-chance in the mechanism of the universe)...
| ...but....
| ..
| hmmmmm ....Quantum Theory has proven to have great predictive and 
Š| operational validity (which does NOT prove it's true, mind you)...
| ...<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 300) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:09:59 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"..this has been KNOWN since the neo-darwinian theory(s)..."
|
| You are mistaken.
|
| None of this stuff was known, is known, and never will be known.
|
| This is for one simple reason.
|
| Yes, you guessed it.......
|
| Because GOD flat-out refuses to allow HIS existence to be proven.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 301) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:13:20 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"hmmmmm ....Quantum Theory has proven to have great predictive and 
| operational validity (which does NOT prove it's true, mind you)..."
|
|
| If that does not 'prove it's true'...
|
| Ergo, the statement "...Quantum Theory has proven..." has not been
| proven to be true.
|
| <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 302) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:14:16 pm 
|
| gregy>
| no, no, no...you need to stop conflating...
| ...
| what is KNOWN, is that, according to ANY current or past evolute theory
| or hypothesis.....the evolution "by change due to randum-mutation" of
| species.....is mathematically impossible...
| ...so....unless they change their hypotheses....or come up with some
| different mathematical laws that will allow it....it it TOO COMPLEX to
| have occurred "by random chance".....flat, final, period...
| ...
| ..and...are you about ready to spout the usual fallback position of,
| "There's no REAL scientist who believes that."......???
| ...
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 303) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:16:30 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"ah....I don't know if I'd quote ole Volt...."
|
| Simply because one does not agree with _everything_ a particular person
| has to say is no reason not to quote those things one _does_ agree with.
|
| <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 304) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:17:25 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn....."Quantum Theory has proven"....NOT to be true (I never said
| that)...but..."to have great...etc".....that statement IS true...and
| that proven validity gives Quantum Theory great operational authority
| (without, still, proving it to be "true")...
| ...
| ...and...then, also...some of the objections to Quantum Theory have
| likewise shown their validity....which doesn't make those objections
| "true" either.....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 305) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:18:55 pm 
|
| gregy>
| ah...yes....and MY quote was meant to disparage Ole Volt....as far as
| him beanun a realll great source of wisdom.....<g g g>
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 306) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:20:41 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"what is KNOWN, is that, according to ANY current or past evolute theory
| or hypothesis.....the evolution "by change due to randum-mutation" of"
|
| That does not mean that anything is KNOWN.
|
| It simply means that as the theory currently exists... it is incomplete
| due to as-yet insufficient gathering of data.
|
| As we continue to collect data..... we may someday be able to say...
| "We _KNOW_ this to be true."
Š|
| On that day... we will ourselves have become GODS.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 307) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:22:07 pm 
|
| gregy>
| and...I reiterate my main point....if you equate/conflate ID as being
| "proving GOD exists"....you are missing the point....
| ...
| That point is...."things are too complex to have come about by random
| chance mutation"....
| ...
| That's it...and that's all IC is saying, and ID is the hypothesis
| derived from that...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 308) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:24:06 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| I refer you ahgain to post 284....
|
| By _who's_ design ????
|
| Assisted by _whom_ ?
|
| In both cases there _is_ only one answer.
|
| GOD
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 309) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:26:32 pm 
|
| gregy>
| well...I admire your humility....even though I disagree with the degree
| to which you are applying it..
| ...
| To whit....I can say, "I KNOW that when I walk over to my wallswitch, 
| and flip it ON, my overhead lights will light up."....
| ...
| This is an "operationally true" statement.....however...I readily
| acknowledge (nay, proclaim....the first to proclaim)..that this is
| only "operationally true".....
| ...
| meaning that somethings we use because they work-out as true, under
| ordinary circumstances...
| ...
| ..just like the Newtonian view/theory of physics-mechanics was "true"
| in it's time....and, really, remains true today....just that it has
| had to be extended...
Š|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 310) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:28:57 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| An apple falls to the ground because that's where it KNOWS it belongs.
|
| <ggggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 311) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:29:14 pm 
|
| gregy>
| ..but it is YOU who are mandating "god" into the IC/ID hypothesis..NOT
| me....and NOT mainstream, middle-roader ID-proponents.....and...how
| DARE you accuse one (nay, two) of the 20th centuries foremost real
| scientists of believing "God created".....he'd be horrified if he heard/
| read you doing so......<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 312) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:29:59 pm 
|
| gregy>
| :)))
| ..
| now,..I LIKE that.....<g g g g>
| ..
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 313) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:31:29 pm 
|
| gregy>
| ...but...as to "just one answer".....nope...there is the answer of the
| non-answer....the refusal to answer.....that's what the term "agnostic"
| means....
| ...
| <g g g >
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 314) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:33:08 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| 1 + 1 = 2
|
Š| Is KNOWN to be true.
|
| Except when you don't KNOW what unit of measure is being applied to each.
|
| 1 pound + 1 ton does _not_ equal 2 pounds nor 2 tons,
| but rather is equal to 1.001 ton or 2001 pounds
|
| <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 315) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:33:20 pm 
|
| gregy>
| oh...BTW....did you find what the problem with the "Reply-to-all" was..
| ..???
| ..
| I was following it on my email....
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 316) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:35:03 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re: post 311
|
| Yes sir, I must agree....
|
| I like THAT too.
|
| <ggg>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 317) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:35:48 pm 
|
| gregy>
| ah...yes...1+1....but that's the REAL genius of "abstract numbers"...
| they aren't in ANY specific "system of units of measure".....<g g g>
| ..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 318) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:36:31 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Yes.... I _think_ I found the problem with 'Reply-To-All'.
|
| But I don't claim to KNOW that I found it.
|
Š| <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 319) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:36:45 pm 
|
| gregy>
| ah..I think you mean post 310....???....
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 320) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:37:35 pm 
|
| gregy>
| well....Sam will KNOW you've found it, and fixed it, whenever it starts
| working for him, and stops crashing his system.....<g g g g g >
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 321) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:39:54 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Now see there.... you caught me in something I _thought_ I KNEW.
|
| I was SURE your post 312 was refering to your post 311...
| when in-fact you were refering to post 310.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 322) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:40:49 pm 
|
| gregy>
| he he....don't you luuuuuvvvv life.....????
| ...
| <g g g g g>
| ..
| he he...it's sooooo much fun...!!!!
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 323) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:41:46 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| But anyways.... I like your post 311.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 324) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:43:07 pm 
Š|
| glennmcc>
| re: Life being fun.
|
| Yep.... because GOD planned it that way. :)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 325) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:47:03 pm 
|
| gregy>
| well...I was being kinda provocative....<g g g>.....that REAL
| scientist's name is(was, he's died).....
| ...Sir Francis Crick.....remember him...???
| ...
| ...and t'other one was Sir Fred Hoyle......(him, also, I'm sure you
| recollect).....
| ...
| The latter the "father" of the "Panspermia" hypothesis...and the former
| the "father" of the "Directed-Panspermia" hypothesis.....both of which
| were based upon their clear acknowledgement of the IrreducibleComplexity
| of living things...
| ...
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 326) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:47:52 pm 
|
| gregy>
| I agree....I find that God is unlikely to "bore me to death"...even tho
| I do NOT expect to get out of life, alive.....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 327) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:48:51 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Oh yeah, as to accusing them of believing in GOD.....
|
| _I_ did not need to accuse them.
|
| Their own words made the accusations.
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 328) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:51:06 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| "Irreducible Complexity"
|
Š| I really _LOVE_ that made-up contradiction in terms. :))
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 329) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:51:31 pm 
|
| gregy>
| nope...both they would vigorously dispute your conclusion.....they,
| neither...gave any credance to "god".....as an operative truth...in
| fact Crick was a militant atheist until his death...and Hoyle was too,
| though less militant...
| ..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 330) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:52:45 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| define:irreducible
| define:complexity
| define:complex
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 331) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:53:08 pm 
|
| gregy>
| no...I don't think so.....can you grasp that a mathematical "point"
| is irreduciably complex....I mean...it cannot be reduced to smaller
| component parts...???
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 332) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:54:05 pm 
|
| gregy>
| I'll try....<g g g>
| ...
| ...but...I'm not an expert....so I may end up confuzzeling....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 333) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:55:11 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re: post 329
|
| I am not refering to their words denying the existance of GOD.
|
Š| I am refering to their proposed theories which proved that they did
| in-fact believe in GOD.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 334) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 7:57:28 pm 
|
| gregy>
| hmmm...I'll give the example that Michael Behe gave (among many) in his
| book, "Darwin's Black Box"....
| ...
| A mousetrap is irreducibly complex...
| ..
| meaning...it cannot be broken down into functionally operational
| separate pieces....all the pieces must be there for it to be a mousetrap
| ...and...any of the pieces have to be "just so (within fairly close
| measurement proportions)" for it to even BE a mousetrap...
| ...
| (I'm talking about the "classic" mousetrap, here....he he he)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 335) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:00:31 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| What I mean by 'contradiction in terms' is that
|
| "Irreducible" == can't be reduced any smaller, hence consists of just
| one part of "infinitesimal smallness".
|
| "Complexity" == consisting of many parts, not just one part.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 336) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:01:14 pm 
|
| gregy>
| no....they/we/I do NOT have to conclude, from IrreducibleComplexity,
| that there is a "god" ...in the sense of what we usually mean by that
| word....I mean...THE GOD....the CREATOR....etc....
| ...
| They/we/I can conclude that "I don't know, therefore I'm not gonna
| answer" ...not gonna answer, that is, when you/someone tries to pin me
| down by asking, "If not evolution, then WHAT..???"....or, conversely,
| "If not GOD, then WHAT...???"...
| ...
| On the basis of IC.....I'm allowed to say, "I don't know, and refuse
| to speculate."...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 337) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:02:49 pm 
|
| gregy>
| but..putting the two together.....the meaning is
| ...
| something made up of the barest minimum number of inter-functional parts
| that still retains the function/functionality of the "thing"...
| ..
| (e.g. a mousetrap)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 338) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:04:28 pm 
|
| gregy>
| it has the further meaning of...bare minimum of specific parts required
| for the combination to perform a certain function...
| ..
| (again, a mousetrap)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 339) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:06:15 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ah.... now I see.
|
|
| "Irreducible Complexity" == all of the parts must be there in-order for
| it to work.
|
| So... does the IC theory claim to KNOW what all of the parts are ????
|
| Is one of those parts named
| (either out-right or through innuendo),....... GOD ???
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 340) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:08:21 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"On the basis of IC.....I'm allowed to say, "I don't know, and refuse
| to speculate."...
|
| But.... but....but....
|
| By putting-forward the theory of IC or ID... you _ARE_ speculating.
|
| <gggg>
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 341) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:11:01 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| You are speculating that you KNOW that the system requires all of the
| parts you KNOW to exist in-order to be funtional.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 342) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:14:01 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| I admit that I _believe_ that GOD controls the system.
|
| I _believe_ that HE can take-away some of the parts if HE so chooses
| and it will still work the way HE intends.
|
| I _believe_ that HE can choose to add new parts that we don't KNOW about
| and it will still work the way HE intends.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 343) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:15:34 pm 
|
| gregy>
| well....that's a valid "conclusion"...not a "speculation"....so...if
| you can tell me which "part" of a mousetrap can be removed, and still
| have the mousetrap function as a mousetrap....then, indeed, a mousetrap
| would not be "irreduciably complex"....but....that hasn't, yet, been
| done...
| ...
| and it's a good number of years since Behe included that example in his
| published book...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 344) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:19:36 pm 
|
| gregy>
| yes, Glenn..I also believe those things.....just....I also believe God
| is NOT a god-of-confusion.....and....like Einstein, I don't believe He
| is "playing dice"...(meaning that He's running some kind of illusionary
| existance here in creation)....that He has set up the creation working
| on certain immutable laws (which, unless you are HE, you cannot change)
| ...and He will NOT bugger-about with those laws...except, maybe in rare
| ...instances....
| ..
| This does NOT mean He cannot bugger-about with those immutable laws..
| but...that His nature means that He will NOT bugger-about with those
| laws...
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 345) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:20:53 pm 
|
| gregy>
| and...I gotta get off this telephone line....expecting a real important
| long-distance call...
| ...
| later...we'll continue this discussion.....<g g g>
| ..
| I've really enjoyed it....don't get to do that much, these days..
| ..
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 346) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:27:39 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| GOD does 'bugger around' with things sometimes.
|
| And HE _does_ have a sense of humor as-well.
|
| Case in-point for both.... humanity.
|
| <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 347) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:34:16 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Whhhheeeeeeewwwwww......What are you guys doing????.......
| Trying to see how many posts you can get on this board before
| Gregy gives up and "arachnives" it?
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 348) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:36:36 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| heheheh... sorry Eric.
|
| But if you feel like reading for a while and having a good laugh in the
| process.... scroll on back a couple of hours and have at it.
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 349) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:38:03 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
Š| You'll need to choose 128 to get the whole thing 'cause 64 don't take
| you to the beginning of it all. ;-)
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 350) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 8:43:00 pm 
|
| Eric>
| As soon as Gregy archives this board, it will be recreated again....
| and....new mutations can occur....how many and at what rate?.....
| Who knows!!  .... but  we all know there will be mutations!
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 351) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 9:03:13 pm 
|
| ray>
| Balls of Fire! Busy board, sorry I mentioned it ;-)
|
| re 288: You should have been a lawyer, Glenn, with your talent for
| obfuscation. In common use 'creation' doesn't imply making something
| from nothing a la God, tho theologians do use it that way of course.
| But take the point of my ilustration without quibbling and you'll 
| see what I mean. And ID is absolutely NOT creationism, I'm ID but
| I have nothing but contempt for most creationists. ID simply points
| out a problem with E theory, where that leads you is none of ID's
| business. Creationism starts with belief in a litteral Genesiss and
| works it backwards.
|
| re 296: Gregy, I think we agree on this one :-)
| However, what is different now is that we can discuss the details
| of molecular biology in a way that was impossible back then --we 
| have the precise details of many systems worked out, thus the old
| trick of the E people -- vagueness -- is no longer tenable.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 352) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 9:20:12 pm 
|
| ray>
| You guys need a bit of straightening out vis. the theory of science:
| A theory is *never* 'true', the word doesn't apply. The best a theory
| can ever be is accurate in it's decription. QM is as good as it 
| gets with theories and when we say that big Al didn't 'believe' in
| QM we don't mean he doubted it's predictive accuracy (he was one
| of the founders of QM!) what we mean is that he would rather that the
| theory was reformulated with different words to remove some 
| philosophicaly unpleasant ideas. What Al didn't like was the
| 'Copenhagen Interpretation' of QM. i.e. he sought to remove the
| 'randomness' in it by finding a deeper order.
|
|
| ============================================================================
Š|
| 353) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 9:34:58 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| "You should have been a lawyer,"
|
| Them's fightin' words Ray.
|
| Good thing you don't live right next door or I'd haffta open up a can a
| whoopass on ya' boy.
|
|
| <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 354) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 9:36:50 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"... And ID is absolutely NOT creationism, I'm ID but
|     I have nothing but contempt for most creationists."
|
| Me thinks he dost protest too much.
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 355) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 9:43:58 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Let me ask you.
|
| 1) an improved theory of evolution that can explain 'design'
|
| Whom do you define as the 'designer' ?
|
| 2) 'assisted evolution'
|
| Whom do you define as the 'assistant' in 'assisted evolution' ?
|
| Not the 'ID masses' .... _you_ personally.
|
| <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 356) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 11:33:33 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Hey, did you guys see the latest Mac add where they claim
| that the Mac doesn't have to worry about viruses? <ggg>
| How many bad boys do you think are out there trying to
| prove them wrong? <ggg>
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 357) Mon, May 01, 2006 - 11:35:30 pm 
|
| gregy>
| well...I designate GOD, THE GOD, the He IS, that He IS, that He IS...
| ..that GOD...as the designer....but....Francis Crick said, "Those others
| across the galaxy."  And, you can't refute him, merely on logic...so..
| ...again...
| ..
| ID is NOT creationism.....though I firmly AM a creationist.....and a
| 6-day, young-earth creationist, at that.....<g g g g>
| ...
| (Ray.....:P~~~~~~~~~~*.).........<g g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 358) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 2:16:56 am 
|
| Jake>
| How young is your earth, Gregy?
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  359) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 2:27:32 am 
|
| gregy>
| Jake....somewhere less than 10Kyears...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 360) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 2:29:06 am 
|
| gregy>
| somewhere between 6-10K...
| ...???
| hmmmmmm....2000+4000.....???
| ...
| yeah...about that....6-10
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 361) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 2:52:35 am 
|
| Jake>
| No comment <G>
|
| Hey-ho, 90% of my domains are screwed this morning.
Š|
| Eggs, basket etc...
|
|
| Could turn a guy to prayer...
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  362) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 3:34:30 am 
|
| gregy>
| I'm sorry to hear you're STILL going through that turmoil.....this is
| the "crap storm" you were groaning under yesterday, and day before...???
| ...
| hmmmm....well, as "care less" as I am, I haven't thought about praying
| for your problem.....in fact....I'm so self-centered, that I just kinda
| passed it off....I apologize..
| ..
| I WILL pray for your problem....can't do you any harm......<g g g g>
| ..(I think....<vbg>)
| ..
| And...if perchance GOD does exist....why, it might even help...<g g g>
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 363) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 7:21:58 am 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| You have nothing but contempt for socialists   ... but we're friends.
| I   have nothing but contempt for creationists ... but we're friends 
|
| ;-)
|
| Glenn, re 'designer'. Good question! E is the only theory known to man
| that claims that 'design' can exist without a 'designer'. ID begs to
| differ and says that design is only ever the product of a designer
| (until we are shown to be wrong). However, who that designer might be
| is not specified by ID. Me? I'd say it's God.
|
| BTW, you young-earther: Have you heard about this lady in (Montana?!)
| who has found residual organic matter in TRex fosils? 
| Organic matter in '65 million' year old fossils?
| It seems these bones commonly stink like they were burried very
| recently !!!!
|
|
|
| See? Respect for ones intelectual adversary is still possible.
| Buckley and Galbraith were at opposite ends of the political
| spectrum but they were admirers of each other.
|
Š|
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 364) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 3:32:03 pm 
|
| ray>
| What I like about my own non-partisan aproach to stuff like that
| is that I'm open to wherever the evidence leads, whether is supports
| my current views or not. As the Muslims once said:
| "Knowledge is the 'lost camel' of the true believer -- no matter where
| the search for it has lead, you are happy when you find it".
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 365) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 3:43:20 pm 
|
| Jake>
| If a partisan approach is one "guided" by politics or religion, well many sc
| hope to be non-partisan. Whether they can be, in the real world, is a differ
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 366) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 4:38:20 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ray,
|
| I respect your opinions whether of not they agree with mine.
|
| On this one we disagree.
|
| So shall we agree to disagree ? :)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 367) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 6:45:12 pm 
|
| ray>
| Hmmm? On what are we disgreeing?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 368) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 7:43:28 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| I equate ID with creationism
|
| You do not.
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 369) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 10:16:00 pm 
|
| ray>
| Yeah, well it's not a black and white thing. Like commies and
| socialists we sit besides each other on the spectrum of beliefs and
| where the 'border' is is not often clear especialy since people
| of devious purpose often blur it deliberately. Creationists often
| pretend to be ID to sound more 'respectable' and true IDers are often
| theists at heart, what is very different (and I speak as a long time
| ID activist) is that creationists start with beliefs and then find
| evidence that supports those beliefs, wheras ID people start with
| science and are open to several resolutions of the problems with
| current E theory. Also, most creationists are young-earthers like
| Gregy, but very few IDers are -- even those of us who believe in
| special creation by God, tend to think that Genesiss is 
| Genissis, Genne Genec Genesis is not to be taken litteraly.
| Probably most of us believe in E, too, but we don't think it
| can explain the whole ball of wax.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 370) Tue, May 02, 2006 - 10:23:37 pm 
|
| ray>
| As for me I can't say with certainty which horse will win the race,
| but my money is on the Big Guy.
|
| Hey Gregy, what about 'Dem Bones'?? ;-) Cool eh?
| And you know how Orthodox evolutionists are dealing with it? Simple
| refusal to believe ... and they say that you and me are blind!
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 371) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 1:00:53 am 
|
| Jake>
| Please expand on "Dem Bones"...
|
| Does ID say anything about why blokes have nipples?
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  372) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 1:34:15 am 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,   Ray's talking about the dinosaur bones that were found
| that are supposed to still have organic matter in them.
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 373) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 2:45:53 am 
|
| Jake>
| That much I've gathered, but a quick search didn't "unearth" anything.
| Is the point that organic matter couldn't be preserved that long?
| Why couldn't it? How have the bones been preserved? How old are the
| bones assumed to be by them's that think they aren't very old (if that
| is the point...)? 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 374) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 2:49:22 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray:...Re: 364....you don't suppose you're gonna need me to rush you
| some arm-slings and dislocation braces....for whenever you get done
| patting yourself on the back...???.......<g g g g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 375) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 2:52:44 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray...Jake....yes..I even know the spot where they "dug 'em up"...<g>
| ...
| ..and....it's a known physical fact....hemoglobin can NOT survice for
| millions of years....not even thousands...and...DNA cannot, either..
| ...
| However, Jake...you can dispute this by finding where there has EVER
| been hemoglobin survival, or DNA remained entact...for a couple of
| hundred years (hemoglobin) or a couple thousand years (DNA)...
| ...
| hasn't ever been found...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 376) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 2:54:58 am 
|
| gregy>
| Glenn....Re:...368....well, I'll agree with you about the 
| ID==creationism......just as soon as you start looking at your computer
| as a "product of random mutation plus chance natural selection"....
| ..
| Until then...even your attempted conflation falls apart under your own
| logic...
| >....<g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 377) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 2:55:40 am 
|
| gregy>
| Or....you begin to believe that the company that manufactured your
| computer is "GOD".....<g g g g>
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 378) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 3:02:20 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray...I'm unabashedly young-earth creationist...and I do NOT try to
| "sound more respectable"....
| ..so...by your criteria (and the alternate criteria of Glenn)..I'm 
| barred from investigating the PHYSICAL, SCIENTIFIC evidence about 
| things being designed, or not.....???
| ...
| Given that most of the scientific greats of the past 1000 years have 
| been creationists, of one degree or another.....I think both your
| attitudes are highly arrogant....
| ...
| However....I'll agree to co-exist with you.....<g g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 379) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 3:03:14 am 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| OK, the <URL> will keep me going between other things...
|
| I must say that the political/religious/whatever dimension to science
| is quite strange to me. There's not the contrast or polarization over
| here and "mainstreammedia" is more likely to give airtime to a scientist
| than a "quack" -- not that science gets much coverage.
|
| But then I'm just a pragmatic Doze user, not a zealot <GGGGGGG!!!!!>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  380) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 3:04:21 am 
|
| Jake>
| Ahem, should've refreshed before posting.
|
| Mornin' Gregy!
|
| (work calls...)
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š|  381) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 3:08:45 am 
|
| Jake>
| A quick scan of the referenced URL would lead me to wonder if some
| vested interest had been cooking the books. After tree rings, whatever
| next????
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  382) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 3:12:00 am 
|
| Eric>
| I don't think any of these "beliefs" or view points is going to
| influence how I co-exist with anything or anyone! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 383) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 3:16:27 am 
|
| gregy>
| Jake...Re: 373....it's not "organic material" that cannot be preserved
| for thousands of years...under some conditions it appears to be "sort
| of preserved".....I mean, in a deteriorated form...decomposed somewhat
| ....
| However, the rather delicate "complete structure" of hemoglobin is known
| to break down relatively rapidly.  The same is true of the complex
| nature of DNA.....
| ...
| I mean....old blood we can detect as being old blood, even though its
| hemoglobin structure has mostly, or completely, deteriorated....
| ...the same for DNA....
| ...
| The hemoglobin in "dem bones" (Ray's...don't blame me..<g g g>...) was
| described in the initial reports as "fresh, undeteriorated".....
| ..
| Now...Ray's right, that the evolutes seem to be just "blinding it out"
| ...<g g g>....actually, what they are trying to do is come up with some
| kind of explanation for the undeteriorated state of what was found..
| ..that is...the ones who aren't just totally denying that there WAS such
| a find.....<g g g g>
| ...
| As for "how old"....hey...who knows....as I said....hemoglobin is known
| to NOT be able to remain undeteriorated for even "hundreds" of years,
| let alone "thousands" of years....but...I'm not willing to put a peg
| on the age of this find....
| ...why...???
| ..because...in any event....this find seems to indicate that hemoglobin
| can, just possibily, survive intact for longer than we've ever found
| before....
| ...and, yes...
| ..it IS possible...that this find will broaden our knowledge to include
| the FACT that hemoglobin can indeed survice, under special
| circumstances, for very much longer than we had previously found...
| ...
Š| However...Ray's point about the evolutes (a lot of them, anyway)
| refusing to even investigate, just totally rejecting out-of-hand that
| this has even occurred, is well taken...because that IS what is
| happening in the case of a lot of evolutes...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 384) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 4:24:51 am 
|
| gregy>
| Jake...thanks for the link...however...may I suggest that you also
| first paste those links into the text box, and then put them into the
| URL box.....the reason being that I archive my boards as .TXT, and the
| URL-links do not get preserved...
| ...
| Also, I suggest that that link of yours is the "2nd" link....Hurd gives
| what I consider to be the "1st" link at the beginning of the article in
| your link...
| ...
| I supply both links, below:
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 385) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 4:25:34 am 
|
| gregy>
| missing links.....<g g g g g>
|
| http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/blood.html
| http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/osteocalcin.html
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 386) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 4:19:34 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| Hey I wasn't slagging you there Sarge! Nope, I've never known you to
| be anything but up front about everything. But there are folks about
| who misrepresent their views for nefarious reasons. For example,
| the fundamentalist Christians who pretend to be ID so's they can
| get themselves into the schools but once there, instead of simply 
| pointing out the deficiencies in E, start 'teaching' Genisis.
| Those people just make it difficult for us 'real' IDers to get in ;-)
| I just think these folks should be honest about their views and 
| what they plan to acompish. Anyway, have at me! I'm not a young
| earther, mostly because of radioisotope dating, but I'll be most
| interested to hear your views. Believe me, overcome the logic of the
| potassium-argon method and I could be converted.
Š|
|
| Yeah, Jake, this dinosaur bone thing is very big news, the thought that
| there could be recognisable organic matter in bones even one M
| years old is thought to be absurd and the bones in question are
| said to be 65 M years old!
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 387) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 4:32:17 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| New earth / old earth,
| 10,000yrs since its creation / 4 billion years since it began to evolve
|
| IMO, those are questions that will never be answered.
|
| But that's not the point.
|
| The point _is_ .... the search for the answers... and the finding of new
| questions to be answered.
|
| But, the answers to the questions are not the goals.
|
| The goals are the questions themselves.
|
| As we find a new answer... we find a new question.
|
| If we ever stop finding questions... we would no longer have reason to
| continue searching.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 388) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 6:13:04 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Is that a lack, or a surfeit of chocolate, Glennn?
|
| That dinosaur bone thing sounds big news over the pond.
|
| There's just so much I don't comprehend! <GGGG> (about N. America)
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  389) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 6:14:51 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Off for a dose of Richard Dawkins and Steve Jones.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  390) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 6:17:30 pm 
Š|
| glennmcc>
| There is no such thing as a surfeit of chocolate.
|
| <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 391) Wed, May 03, 2006 - 7:44:11 pm 
|
| ray>
| Richard Dawkins is proof that you don't have to believe in God
| to be a fundamentalist.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 392) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 2:26:31 am 
|
| Jake>
| A contradiction in terms, methinks.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  393) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 4:03:56 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   I was just watching a program on Custer National Forest
| in Montana showing on PBS-TV.  I think they said near Ashton, MT
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 394) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 4:44:49 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   Correction,  that must have been Ashland, MT.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 395) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 7:07:18 am 
|
| ray>
| Jake,
|
| It's not the normal use of the word, but I think it's apt.
| A fundamentalist is one who sees the world in very simple terms --
| they have The Answer and everyone else is either stupid or wicked
| for not seeing it too. There are no doubts nor questions of any size
| about The Answer. Dawkins is a fundamentalist evolutionist to be sure.
| His view of creationists and IDers is about symetrical with Gregy's
| view of GWers: they are not just wrong, they are bad people intent
| on deliberate harm and they must be stopped at any cost using any
| method.
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 396) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 7:33:30 am 
|
| Jake>
| Well I doubt Dawkins or indeed Gregy would go quite as far as a
| Stalinist purge. Indeed, I've read articles where stereotyping 
| and lax use of language has caused great offence to those accused
| of such behaviour who have in fact survived such times of turmoil.
|
| Steve Jones recently said that Creationists shouldn't be allowed to
| train as medical doctors.
|
| A prog about Nazi architecture last night touched on the fuzzy
| beliefs of Himmler & Co., saying they were really just hippies
| in uniform (with the obvious additional nasty traits, I might
| add). 
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 397) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 1:22:21 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,    How in blazes could Himmler & Co. be hippies?....<ggg>
| Hippies were for "love not war"......."Hey man....Peace man...
| Love man..."
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 398) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 3:00:51 pm 
|
| Jake>
| It was their beliefs in wood nymphs etc. Maybe more "New Age" than "Hippy", 
| have the precise terminolgy in my grasp. Even if I did, how do I know anyone
| what I mean? Just as any ID talk is of little interest to the average Brit, 
| baby steps for us ignoramuses. 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 399) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 3:02:29 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Ooops, using the Off-By-One browser again, and its text
| in the box is teen-weeny, so more waffle to a line, and
| longer lines as a result. Only going half-way across this
| time.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  400) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 3:04:45 pm 
|
Š| Jake>
| BTW it's simple to change the User Agent declaration for
| this browser, which can be fun, if you know someone's
| going to be poring over their pages of webstats (uh, like
| me...)
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  401) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 4:13:58 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,     What is/does the user agent do, man? 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 402) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 4:47:01 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| All web browsers have what's called the 'UserAgent string'.
|
| Some web pages are setup to send a slightly different design of the page
| depending upon which browser you are using when you visit.
|
| To see your userAgaent string, visit this page....
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/useragnt.php
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 403) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 4:51:41 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| I have my message board setup to send <body arachne>
| if you visit uising Arachne... but just <body> if not using Arachne.
|
| $user_agent = getenv(http_user_agent); 
| if(ereg("xChaos", $user_agent)) 
| echo"<body arachne>;
| else 
| echo"<body>"; 
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 404) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 5:33:05 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Is the user agent supposedto be in the environment?....I
| don't see it in my environment...<ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 405) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 5:47:35 pm 
|
| ray>
| Eric,
|
| Nope, it doesn't get into your environment, tho that *could* be done.
|
| Jake,
|
| re 396: Well I'm not equating either Dawkins or Gregy to Stalinists.
| In fact, I think you could be a Stalinist without being a fundamentalist
| at all, lots of them were cynical types after all who did not
| view the world in the simple way that fundamentalists do.
| BTW my  best friend is also a fundamentalist evolutionist and he's
| quite a nice guy, I'm just glad he's not running the world ;-)
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 406) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 5:57:34 pm 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| I suppose to be Stalinist they should also be into State Capitalism,
| and leave the purges for Sundays. Well, not Gregy, cos he likes to
| start the working week with a purge <G>
|
| Here-e-be my current Off-By-One UA string (thnx to MrMcC):
| http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4628/ob1ua4bn.gif
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  407) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 6:11:58 pm 
|
| Eric>
| What's this Off-By-One stuff?
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 408) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 6:15:46 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Am I correct?  I thought that some sites check the user agent
| string and if it doesn't please them then you can't load the
| site pages....eh, man?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 409) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 6:32:22 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Yeah, I had a run-in with the M$ UK Biz Solutions site a few years ago,
| cos they wouldn't let me in with old Opera3.6x for Win3.1x. I sent them
Š| screenshots showing that Opera displayed their pages (once I'd got in)
| better than Exploiter, but still they preferred to block Opera.
|
| Off-By-One is a Doze9x browser that'll prolly fit on a floppy and leaves
| no traces when you close it (unless you want persistent cookies). It's
| a bit quirky but what the heck.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  410) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 7:20:02 pm 
|
| ray>
| Kool! A 'doze browser on a floppy? does if have Java? Are sources
| available?
|
| Hmmm, I wonder if we should have a hotkey that temporarily 
| changes the user agent to some string set by the user? I love the
| idea of fooling the bastards.
|
| UserAgent M$ Internet Exploder 34.3.5.6
|
| ... or whatever gets under the radar.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 411) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 7:21:23 pm 
|
| ray>
| Man, that would be so easy to do ;-)
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 412) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 8:25:39 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ray... my man,
|
| Why do suppose we did this already ???
|
| xChaos_Arachne/5.1.90
| _______________^<__ we are identified as a 'version 5' browser now
| instead of 'version 1'
|
| Michael did that quite a few years ago by pre-pending the actual version
| number with a '4.' so that sites would stop blocking us from accessing
| them because we we not visiting with  'version 4 or higher browser'.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 413) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 8:37:17 pm 
| URL
|
Š| glennmcc>
| Eric,
|
| re: post 408
|
| Yep... sure can be done.
|
| I just now made a demo page.
|
| Visit this one with any browser other than Arachne and not only will
| you not be able to access my message board, but after a 10sec delay
| you'll be auto-redirected to the Arachne download page instead.
|
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/aqc/arachne_only.php
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 414) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 8:38:35 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| This is what you'l see on your screen........
|
| You are using
|
| (your UserAgent string will be shown here)
|
| Please try again with Arachne.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 415) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 8:41:15 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| This is what I got just now with DOS Lynx....
|
|    REFRESH(10 sec): http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/arachne/
|
|                                You are using
|        Lynx/2.8.5rel.1 libwww-FM/2.14 SSL-MM/1.4.1 OpenSSL/0.9.7d-dev
|                        Please try again with Arachne.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 416) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 9:47:54 pm 
|
| ray>
| Glenn,
|
| Yeah, I remember that, but we could make it a user option, that way
| we can tell the truth most of the time, and whatever BS is needed
| can be told when necessary. Sorry, it's the Irish blood in me ;-)
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 417) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 10:48:05 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   I can't test your page for redirection of non-Arachne
| browsers 'cause my ISP(library) is screwed up again.  I'm logged
| on with my DOS computer on this line but I can't log on with either
| my W$doze computer or my other DOS computer. The ISP will not
| process my name and password. So, I don't want to log this computer
| off.  If I lose this connection I don't know when I'll get back on.
| So.....if I disappear you'll know why!  <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 418) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 10:51:13 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| The point I was trying to make is that ever since addition of '4.'
| (and now '5.'), at the start of our version number...
|
| Not one single report has been filed about a site denying access to Arachne.
|
| The version number change did the trick.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 419) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 10:52:38 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Eric,
|
| Don't you think it's time you got a 'real ISP' ? <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 420) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 11:36:10 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| I think I found the problem that was causing those xSwap crashes.
|
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/190-0505.zip
| (brand new Eric customized compile)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 421) Thu, May 04, 2006 - 11:56:48 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   I'll grab it...but....I'll not install it until
| my ISP straightens out....It's not even working right with
| this computer....takes for ever for connections to occur! <ggg>
Š| BTW, seems I remember your "real" ISP going a little "dittzy"
| a few days ago! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 422) Fri, May 05, 2006 - 2:46:12 am 
|
| Eric>
| I just called the library help line and the automated message says
| that the whole library is without internet service due to phone
| company problems.  It sounds like I may be the only one still
| connected. <ggg>   No wonder my connection is so slow. <ggg> 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 423) Fri, May 05, 2006 - 3:56:09 am 
|
| Eric>
| It just took 20+sec to make a connection to my Juno mailbox with
| Arachne for POP3.  Once connected the mail downloads normally. <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 424) Fri, May 05, 2006 - 10:09:34 am 
|
| Eric>
| My ISP is back up and I never lost connection with this Arachne
| computer. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 425) Fri, May 05, 2006 - 2:42:20 pm 
|
| ray>
| Glenn,
|
| Well, if that's all it takes, I s'pose that's all it takes.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 426) Fri, May 05, 2006 - 5:03:34 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Well, .... I can't say with absolute certainty "That's all it takes."
|
| All I _can_ say is
|
| "That's all it took to stop getting reports of problems."
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 427) Fri, May 05, 2006 - 7:04:47 pm 
Š|
| glennmcc>
| Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson went on a camping trip.
| After a good meal and a bottle of wine, they were exhausted and went
| to sleep.
| Some hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend. 
|
| "Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see." 
|
| Watson replied, "I see millions and millions of stars." 
|
| "What does that tell you?" Holmes said 
|
| Watson pondered for a minute. 
|
| "Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and
| potentially billions of planets.
| Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo.
| Timewise, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three.
| Theologically, I can see that The lord is all powerful and that we are
| small and insignificant.
| Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have, a beautiful day tomorrow.
| What does it tell you?"
|
| Holmes was silent for a minute, then spoke. 
|
| "Watson, you idiot, Some son-of-a-bitch has stolen our tent." 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 428) Fri, May 05, 2006 - 7:41:23 pm 
|
| ray>
| Not bad :-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 429) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 12:33:59 am 
|
| gregy>
| Jake...Re: 406...
|
| "...and leave the purges for Sundays. Well, not Gregy, cos he likes to
| start the working week with a purge <G>..."
| ..
| ..and I think we MIGHT be forced to begin next week's purge with that
| McC guy.....for that Holmes thingee......<g g g g g>
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 430) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 12:35:01 am 
Š|
| gregy>
| Ray....Jake...et al....I resent you classifying me, in ANY way, with
| that Dawkins....!!!!!
| ...
| <g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 431) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 2:47:31 am 
|
| Jake>
| I was "keeping Sunday special" for you...
|
| BTW I'm sure Holmes would never have used such uncouth language <g> 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 432) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 9:32:42 am 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| But I'm correct! You and Dawkins live at opposite ends of the 
| intelectual universe to be sure but you both have the same basic
| attitude toward each other (Bad People!) Being in the middle, I can
| talk to both of you respectfully and with any luck, bridge the gap.
| Heck I *know* I like you and it would be interesting to see if 
| I'd like Dawkins too ... (though to tell that truth, that might be
| a bit of an effort).
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 433) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 9:35:45 am 
|
| gregy>
| prolly not....<g g g>....and I've been reading some "new" (to me, I just
| ran into them) Holmes pastiches, which are delightful....can't remember
| off hand who the author is....some woman in California...but, they've
| been fun...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 434) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 9:38:17 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray....you mistake me.....I do NOT consider Dawkins, et al...or others,
| either....as "bad people".....they are NOT "evil".....they are people
| who do bad things....i.e. they are "evil doers".....but they are NOT
| "bad" or "evil".....
Š| ..
| difference between me an Dawkins...et al.....they think I'm evil, 
| because I argue "That Oldtime Religion".....<g g g g>
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 435) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 9:39:41 am 
|
| gregy>
| Oh, and Ray....another BIG difference between me and Dawkins, et al...
| ...
| He/they is WRONG.....
| ...
| I'm right....simple...not rocket science....<g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 436) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 9:55:51 am 
|
| gregy>
| Oh...and you might keep an eye on all the sugar-coated communists now
| popping up in latin-america....it won't be long before they've firmly
| (brutally) consolidated their "control"....you know, "Power to the
| People."....etc....
| ...
| Then your rejection of my 
| socialist==communist 
| will suddenly (and soddenly...<g>...) come back an bite you..
| ...
| .....<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 437) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 10:21:26 am 
|
| Jake>
| Is Dawkins an evil-DOER in particular or just in general (as in "fallen").
| Or do you mean he is an evil-SAYER (because he's not on your "side").
|
| I would say certain interpretations of "oldtime religion" lead to evil
| ACTIONS and inactions. 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 438) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 12:32:33 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
Š| Ok, I'll take you on your own word there, but it sometimes seems that
| you equate error with evil, or the way you write, it can seem that
| way. As to the sugar-coated commies. Would you say the governments of
| Sweden, Germany, Denmark, etc. can soberly be called 'brutal'??
| And they are socialist after all, no denying that is there?
| Chile has been moderately socialist for quite a few years now, and
| personaly speeking, I consider it a wee bit *less* brutal than it was
| under 'Uncle Agusto'.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 439) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 1:27:03 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"either....as "bad people".....they are NOT "evil".....they are people
| who do bad things....i.e. they are "evil doers".....but they are NOT
| "bad" or "evil"....."
|
|
| Hmmm.... stupid is as stupid does.
| therefore it must follow that....
| honorable is as honorable does,
| considerate is as considerate does,
| and that evil is as evil does.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 440) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 8:13:40 pm 
|
| ray>
| Right. As we said before, the road to Hell ...
| We Christians know that we can never judge the absolute value of
| anyone because we can't see their heart, all we can see is their
| actions and words and on that evidence, as you say, evil is as evil
| does. However, evil and stupid are easily confused. Since I like to
| give people the benefit of the doubt I am far more likely to say 
| people are misguided or off track or even dumb than to say they
| are evil. I draw the line at Cheney tho.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 441) Sun, May 07, 2006 - 8:45:17 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| So.... you've seen the heart of our V.P. have you ????
|
| <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 442) Mon, May 08, 2006 - 8:37:52 am 
Š| URL
|
| gregy>
| Ray.....<g g g>
|
| http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20060508_126522_126
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 443) Mon, May 08, 2006 - 10:12:16 am 
|
| Jake>
| What a weird article.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  444) Mon, May 08, 2006 - 2:48:16 pm 
|
| W0rm>
| Well, yes...that's the first time I've seen an article go from Doughnuts, to
| Canadian-American politics to Abortion/Euthanasia...
|
| But yea, my comment on the evil thing would rather be that no one is evil, o
| by it :)
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  445) Mon, May 08, 2006 - 2:50:08 pm 
|
| W0rm>
| I suppose the difference is whether or not you believe evil is a creation of
| separate entity that flirts with men.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  446) Mon, May 08, 2006 - 3:56:02 pm 
|
| ray>
| Yeah, even for a right-wing rant, that was a strange bit of writ.
| However, I've gotta confess, on these 'social' issues I'm not
| "progresive" at all -- probably as reactionary as Gregy.  Truth be
| told, if the social engineers ever do suceed in destroying the last
| vestages of Christian culture here in Kanistan, I'm going to
| sneak aross the border and see if Gregy will adopt me as his personal
| wetback.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 447) Mon, May 08, 2006 - 5:13:49 pm 
|
Š| Jake>
| The view of "here" from "over there" was illuminating.
| The author denigrates the use of short-hand based on
| movie references yet takes as read what he assumes is
| happening in Europe.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  448) Tue, May 09, 2006 - 12:40:01 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
|
| http://www.godspy.com/life/Being-Brenda.cfm
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 449) Tue, May 09, 2006 - 1:05:00 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
|
| http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/books/review/07gilmour.html
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 450) Tue, May 09, 2006 - 3:07:48 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
|
| http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZDYwOGExMmUxOWY0ZDgxNGQxMGEwZjg4N
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 451) Tue, May 09, 2006 - 10:06:21 pm 
|
| ray>
| Read that first URL, Gregy. I've heard of that poor guy. Hard to
| believe that within my lifetime we were capable of such monstrous
| ignorance and stupidity and midaeval barbarism. Butchers!
| Charlatans! The twits are probably still practicing too. I've gotta
| admit that stuff like this can send a guy screaming into the night
| running in a decidedly rightward direction.
| Murder!
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 452) Wed, May 10, 2006 - 9:01:18 pm 
Š|
| Eric>
| Ray,   That article on "Brenda" just points out how foolish
| the concept of "informed consent" really is...<ggg>...
| there really is no such thing. It's like a computer tech
| saying to a new W$doze user: "I'm going to DELTREE Windows.000,
| if you agree, 'cause I think DOS is better and less vulnerable"
| This is after the new user just took a 6 mnth course on W$doze,
| and...never had any DOS...and...only heard DOS mentioned once
| when told about the DOS window. <ggg>   The new user says: "Yeh,
| your the expert...What ever you think is best."  That's a typical
| case of "uninformed...informed consent".  <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 453) Wed, May 10, 2006 - 9:05:39 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Ray,    Oh, I forgot to add, the techy also gave the new user
| a beginning manual on DOS....similar to all those papers
| the pharmacy gives you in redundancy when you get your Rx filled.
| <ggg> 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 454) Wed, May 10, 2006 - 10:37:20 pm 
|
| ray>
| Eric,
|
| Yeah, Informed consent is a tricky thing, never perfectly achieved
| but still important to strive for. I think a lot of the time it's
| more for show that for genuine input from the 'victim' but I still
| think we need to keep the idea alive and punish the more egregious
| violations. Then there are the times when 'consent' really just amounts
| to an attempt to avoid liablilty on the part of the doctor, or 
| whoever.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 455) Thu, May 11, 2006 - 7:03:23 am 
|
| gregy>
| Yeah...so...why did I post that link...???
| ..
| Now I'll tell the truth....<g g g>
| ..
| Because that Ole Money is (just do an Arachne-find:)...wait for it..
| ...here it comes....ta da....!!!!
| ...
| ..a leading "sexologist"...you know...one of those "kinseyian pervert
| child-abusing/propogandizing/twisting" who are ALL the big rage with
| the MLsM....(MainLeftstreamMedia)....
Š| ...
| So, he does a little "medical experimentation" and completely skates
| from any penalty...
| ..
| So, Ray....I mean....you seem awfully indignant....???...how about you
| exercise some of your proclaimed "tolerance" toward this poor guy...I
| mean, after all, he just "has a different opinion" from yours, and he's
| just trying to advance the "good agenda"....so...hey...lighten up...
| ...
| As for me....I still maintain that ideas have consequences, and those
| who lie and pervert things "for their agenda"...should be taken out an
| hung from the lampposts...
| ...
| <g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 456) Thu, May 11, 2006 - 7:04:32 am 
|
| gregy>
| Oh, and he's, also, prolly, "just trying to make a living".....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 457) Thu, May 11, 2006 - 7:25:39 am 
|
| ray>
| Well, I knew you wouldn't let me get away with that ;-)))
| But ... he had more than a 'different oppinion' didn't he?
| He butchered a living person in the name of his theory. Murdered him.
| That's not a difference of opinon over interpretation of data.
| Sheesh I do have limits even to my 'tolerance' ... hmmmm, but 
| 'tolerance' isn't what I'm about anyway. What I'm about is
| civil respect and the giving of the benefit of the doubt to people
| who disagree with you as to their intentions. But that guy, even if
| his intentions were good, his monstrous arogance is such that I'd
| still punch him in the mouth if I ever saw him. Gotta draw the line
| somewhere.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 458) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 1:40:54 am 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| In similar vein, here in the UK Chris Langham, a well-known comedy
| writer/actor, is charged with child porn offences. If he's found
| guilty I doubt his work would be broadcast again. If I came across
| it for download I think I would nab it, put this case out of my
| mind, and thoroughly enjoy it, partly because regular doses of his
Š| work were no longer available.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  459) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:30:04 am 
|
| gregy>
| Jake...I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same....as long as his work was
| "just comedy"....I mean....not heavily pushing some "agenda, etc"...
| ...but....I probably wouldn't...
| ...
| However, this would be a case I would classify VERY differently from
| those "agenda-driven" cases......I mean...this seems to be only a case
| of "human failings".....I think there is at least a small shade of
| difference..
| ..<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 460) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:32:57 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray....I was trying to ambush you....<g>....well, not really...but I
| came across it (again) and thought it was worth posting for its own
| merit..
| ...but...I also confess that I had a "point" come to mind when I was
| preparing to post it....
| ...which point I nailed in 455-456.....
| ....<g g g>
| ...now....I can go on to the development of that "point" with some
| surety that you all are "paying attention"......<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 461) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:39:52 am 
|
| gregy>
| QUESTION - "Ideas have consequences"....is that true...???
| ...
| CONSIDER:
| 1.  Hit;er's Mein Kampf
| 2.  Marx's Communist Manifesto
| 3.  Rachel Carson's Silent Spring
|
| Oh, you protest...!!!....you mean, "There's no WAY you can compare 
| them..!!!"  
| ...
| 1.  Hitler/nazism == approximately 30-50 million killed during the "Second
| World War Period"...which I'm designating as running from 1933-1945..
| .. I mean..it includes the "runup" to the war, and includes the fighting
| in Asia, also....
| ...and....the second group, communists, bear part of the blame/guilt for
Š| those 30-50 million (directly caused by the "war"), since the commies
| helped/supplied/trained Hitler's forces...as least at the beginning..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 462) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:43:21 am 
|
| gregy>
| 2.  Marx/communism - appproximately 60-100 million in the Soviet Area
| alone....another 100+ million in China.....another 10-20 million around
| the periphery of Soviet/Chinese sphere....we total conservatively around
| a minimum of 200 million....
| ..
| 3.  Carson/environmentalism - just how much do you think I should start
| adding here...???
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 463) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:46:16 am 
|
| gregy>
| Right off the bat....approximately (conservative counting) 1.2 million
| per year deaths from malaria....that's at least 45 million...just from
| the "ban on DDT".....but I'll be "generous" and count it as only 40mil.
| ...
|
| ...what else do you think we need to put in "enviro-nutzism's" balance
| column....???
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 464) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:16:42 am 
|
| Jake>
| Were Govts and aid agencies arguing against Silent Spring at the time?
|
| Are you over-infuenced by your rearview mirror on history? <G>
|
| Stationed near Bergen-Belsen, my father spoke with many ordinary Germans,
| who just muddled through, with a death-camp nearby.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  465) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:17:58 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   The mosquitos don't have Malaria...the animals and people
| have the Malaria...the mosquito is just the messenger...Haven't 
| you ever heard that axiom..."Don't kill the messenger!" ?
| Killing the mosquitos with DDT is like throwing the baby out
| with the bath water. If the Anosophiles (sp?) mosquito didn't
Š| have anyone sick with Malaria to bite then it wouldn't spread
| Malaria.  Treat the sick people!  I don't want DDT in my food
| and drinking water!  I know too much about Chemistry and Biology.
| DDT is not good for man nor beast.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 466) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:21:24 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   It's a lot easier to treat Malaria than to treat Cancer!
| Costs less too! <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 467) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:49:39 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...much a I respect you.....you are WRONG...!!!!  Please go look
| it up....DDT is NOT harmful to humans OR animals...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 468) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:54:33 am 
|
| gregy>
| Jake...yes....there WAS a lot of debunking, at the time, of the "DDT
| Scare"....the brand, spanking-new, EPA scientists's panel issued a 144
| page report completely exonorating DDT.....yet...
| ...
| Ruckels-Louse (first head of EPA) ordered it banned, anyway./..
| ...
| BTW...it's now "becoming fashionable" for the MLsM to tentatively
| nudge for the repeal of the ban (see NYTimes articles this past two
| years)...
| ....
| As for g'vts opposed....who knows....the MLsM buries those kinda things,
| and this was waaayyyy before the internet...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 469) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:56:05 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....no, it's NOT easier to "treat malaria than to treat cancer"
| ...what you've done here is compare "apples and oranges"....
| ..
| please rethink/restate......<g g g>
|
|
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 470) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:11:20 am 
|
| Jake>
| I still feel your case is based on hindsight, and that choosing
| not to intervene with new technology is way down the scale from
| making the decision to murder. Every one of us in the first world
| is guilty of causing deprivation and death by being able to afford
| more than our fair share. We're the same as those people at Bergen-
| Belsen.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  471) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:16:22 am 
|
| glennmcc>
| Define 'fair share'.
|
| <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 472) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:27:56 am 
|
| Jake>
| I dunno, I just know I'm not getting mine! <G>
|
| Schumacher ("Small Is Beautiful") said a 7:1 ratio between highest
| and lowest pay rates in an organization worked well.
|
| It amuses me when old farts trot out the "they think the world owes
| them a living" criticism of the feckless, when if they faced it they
| would acknowledge that they make more use of the world's abundance.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  473) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:42:57 am 
|
| glennmcc>
| Who are 'they' ?
|
| And why do _they_ think that the world _has_ things in abundance ?
|
| The truth of the matter is that the abundance of things in this world
| is the result of the world _acheiving_ an abundance of things due to
| the hard work of people like us.
|
| None of those items which are now in abundance would even exist had we
| _working stiffs_ not built them, grown them, mined them.... etc...etc...
|
|
| <gggg>
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 474) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:06:27 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   I'm sorry but you have hit one of my sensitive nerves
| with this DDT thing.  I have extensive chemical and bio-chemical
| training under my belt and I can tell you DDT is not good for
| the human body. Despite all our "sophistication" in medicine,
| chemistry, physics, and related subjects, IMHO, our ability to
| determine specific effects of specific chemicals/substances
| on the human body is very poor. The techniques used are very
| flawed due to the complexities involved. This leads to the
| varied opinions and test results one sees.  DDT is not the
| most potent poison...but...it is a poison and it causes
| harm to the human body and other living organisms. And
| since it is also an organic compound with benzene rings
| there is a very high probability that it has effects
| which promote "cancer" if not directly cause "cancer".
| Please note the quotes around the word "cancer". That 
| is because "cancer" is not really a disease. It is 
| a lay term which is used to describe certain diseases
| which are hard to treat and are often fatal. It is almost
| as general a term as the word "disease" itself.
| So, I think the current controlled use of DDT is a good
| thing. Especilly when one considers how mankind abuses
| the use of chemicals in general.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 475) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:17:49 pm 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| re: 460, I *know* you were ambushing me and I took the bait deliberately
| but also honestly because I don't want you to think that I am 
| some namby pamby reletavist who thinks that everything is beautiful.
| We all have limits to what we can tolerate, the worthwile debate
| amonst civilized men is: what should the parameters of those limitations
| be?
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 476) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:30:00 pm 
|
| ray>
| Just the other day, coinsidentaly, DDT was menioned on the news.
| The report said that poor countries are exempted from the ban on it,
| and use it in great quantity.
|
| Gregy, a while back you posted a URL which said that the envirionment
Š| is getting cleaner and that past prophecies
| of doom have not come true *because* we took the eco-nutters 
| warnings and did things like take lead out of gas, etc. Now are
| you saying we should ignore everything the eco-nutters say because
| they *may* (might!) have made a mistake or two along the way?
| So: we should
|
| go back to leaded gas
| abolish all car emission controls (a bit of smog is good for ya!)
| encourage cigarette smoking
| remove all standards from coal burning power plants.
| get rid of that bothersome 'clean water act'.
| etc.
| ???
|
| Even if (if!) the ecologists haven't always been right does that
| mean we just ignore the environment? You can't mean that!
|
| warnings and 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 477) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:46:01 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   It's my bet that the cure rate for malaria patients
| is higher than the cure rate for "cancer" patients, even
| taking into account the acquired resistance to some malaria
| treatments. And based on my knowledge I stand by my original
| premise, "It is a lot easier to treat malaria patients than
| to treat cancer patients. Particularly on a mass treatment
| basis! 
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 478) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 7:17:12 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| define:cancer
|
| 2: [Latin, crab, cancer] 
| a: a malignant tumor of potentially unlimited growth that expands
|    locally by invasion and systemically by metastasis
| b: an abnormal bodily state marked by such tumors
|
| 3:
|    something evil or malignant that spreads destructively
|    <the cancer of hidden resentment -- Irish Digest>
|
| 4:
| a: an enlarged tumorlike plant growth (as that of crown gall)
| b: a plant disease marked by such growths
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 479) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:26:35 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   Those definitions leave out blood dyscrasias like
| leukemia and other disorders generally grouped under "cancer".
| I'm not sure if those definitions would cover Karposi's Sarcoma
| either.  And of course you left out "auto body cancer". <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 480) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:53:56 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| The main point I was trying to make with that is that you are correct.
|
| The term "cancer" covers a myrid of diseases.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 481) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:32:00 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   Thank you defining your intentions...<ggg>...it's
| nice to be coroborated...but as you know, dictionary definitions
| tend to be terse and short and simplify as much as possible since
| their space and intentions are limited.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 482) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:44:59 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Jake....Re: 470..."hinsight"..."rearview mirror"....
| ..
| As a matter of fact I was NOT involved in that original debate, because
| I was working hard on a large contract in Iran during that time...but..
| I followed the debate as closely as I could.
| ...
| But, even had I not been born, your "hindsight/rearview" argument avoids
| the whole debate.
| ..
| The QUESTION is:
| 1.  Does DDT do what Carson (and her sycophants) said it did/does....??
| 2.  Is DDT harmful to humans...??
| ...
| For actual fact, your argument against "hingsight/rearview" would bar
| anyone born after WWII from saying "never again"...wouldn't it...<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 483) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:52:27 pm 
Š|
| gregy>
| Jake...Re: 470...again...<g g g>...."far down the scale, etc"...my point
| is that ideas have consequences...
| ...
| Mein Kampf had consequences...
| Silent Spring had consequences...
| ..
| BOTH those directly caused the deaths of tens of millions.....are you
| saying that the people responsible should NOT be held accountable...???
| ...
| I am saying that they SHOULD be held accountable....and as swiftly as
| possible...
| ...
| Back to ole Money....you think his "medical experimentation just to
| prove his ding-aling ideas that male/female physiology has no essential
| difference, his medical experimentation to "advance the good cause"
| ...his butchering the lives of BOTH those twins....
| ...are you saying that there should be NO accountablity for that...???
| ...
| Knowing you....I'd say you're NOT saying that....<g g g>....but...I get
| that impression from what you have posted.....please clarify....
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 484) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:56:22 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...Re: 465...."..mosquitoes don't have malaria..."....falacy...sorry
| ...mosquitoes DO "have malaria"...they just don't suffer the effects of
| "having" it.....
| ...
| Your statement is tatamont to you saying "Typhoid Mary" didn't "have"
| typhoid....just because she didn't suffer the effects of carrying it.
| ...
| And...likewise....the millions of hepatitis-carriers...they don't "have"
| it, either, then, do they...???.....<g g g>....so...why don't you go
| volunteer to have a blood transfusion from one of them....???
| ...<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 485) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:57:32 pm 
|
| gregy>
| he he...since I'm one of them...I'll volunteer to donate my blood to 
| you for your "experiment".....<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 486) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:02:53 pm 
Š|
| gregy>
| Eric...Re:...474....
|
| "So, I think the current controlled use of DDT is a good thing."
| ..
| But, don't you realize that that is NOT true....it is totally banned..
| there is NO controlled use....now that is the general rule...and there
| ARE very small, quickly done exceptions to that rule.
| ...
| From your statement...it would seem that you are NOT in favor of a total
| ban, then....??
| ...
| So, you might elucitate on what "controlled" use you would think was NOT
| harmful to humans/et al.....???
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 487) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:14:38 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...Re:..474 (the DDT portion of that post....we'll save the cancer
| portion for later...<g g g>.....).
| ...
| There have been more than 12 (I would cite "dozens" but I don't want to
| appear to be indulging in hyperbole, here..<g g g>...)...more than 12
| CAREFUL research projects that have tried to 1) reproduce the effects
| that Carson reported in her book/other-writings/speakings.....NONE of
| them were able to repro her supposed "research".....
| 2)...Nor have ANY research projects been able to demonstrate ANY ill
| effects to any mammals/humans from DDT...
| 3)...Back immediately after the ban (an for many years thereafter) there
| was a scientist who went to Junior High and High Schools, throughout
| North America, doing Assemblies wherein he ate DDT powder copiously, to
| show that is was NOT harmful.  He died within the past couple years, at
| age 85...reportedly in "quite good health" right up until death...<g>
| he he...I think that is somewhat amusing...a person dying in "quite good
| health".....<g g g g>.....however, during his rather full lifetime, he
| never exhibited any adverse effects from all his DDT eating...<g g g>
| ..
| I will not quote from this volumnous documentation...
| ..
| What I'll do, instead, is challenge you to post link(s) to what you
| consider research proof that DDT is "hazardous to your health" and then
| I'll rip it for you.....<g g g>
| ...
| That'll way will serve to keep the noise here down a bit....<g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 488) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:21:18 pm 
Š|
| gregy>
| Ray....Re:...476
| "The report said that poor countries are exempted from the ban on it,
| and use it in great quantity..."
| ...
| I'm sorry, Ray, but your "news" was either lying to you...(which is a
| favorite, constant, casual habit of the MLsM) or you misunderstood them
| ....
| They cannot "get" DDT, because the "international community (those
| sods)" have made it effectively impossible for them to "get" it...and
| ..it Africa and India (and other "poor" countries/areas) the ONLY
| defense you will see is distribution of mosquito nets...with some use of
| far-less effective very-short-life pestisides applied to a few, specific
| dwellings, and NOT applied to the marshes/swamps in which the pests
| overwhelmingly breed...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 489) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:24:15 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Ray...furthermore....ALL...I mean..ALL the poor-area aid organizations
| ONLY mention nets/point-applicaton-of-ineffective-agents as the methods
| being used to try to damp it down...they make NO mention of DDT...so..if
| it IS being used....as your so-called "news" claimed....it's not USED
| in the sense of widely/publicly....
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 490) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:27:45 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....back again to your "malaria is easier to treat/cure than cancer"
| ...
| Okay....cite some figures....<g g g>
| ...
| he he...I think you'll find that the "figers" show otherwise....<g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 491) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:28:37 pm 
|
| ray>
| Hmmm, well that's a simple matter of fact, not interpretation nor
| inuendo, so it can be resolved. Hmmm, did I hear wrong or was the
| report mistaken? Or was it correct? Hmmm, how to find out?
| Let's google it ...
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 492) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:49:38 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,  use your own head...Figures are not necessary...Think...
| What current procedures are used to treat "cancer"?....Surgery...
| surgical removal of tumors...liver transplants...bone marrow
| replacement...irradiation...laser surgery...chemotherapy...
| the list goes on, I know I'm missing something...none of these
| are used to treat Malaria, that I know of.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 493) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:54:15 pm 
|
| RAY>
|
| Greenpeace, WWF Repudiate Anti-DDT Agenda - by James Hoare - The HeartlArach
| 1.90:B-7:6u
| http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=16803                 Fri, 12 May
| 21:34:12
|
| MY COMMENTS IN CAPITALS:
|
| Spokesmen for Greenpeace and the World Wildlife Fund
| (WWF), activist environmental groups that have led the
| effort to ban worldwide use of the pesticide DDT, have
|
| SEEMS THERE HAS BEEN A 'EFFORT' BUT WAS IT SUCESSFULL?
|
| admitted to the New York Times that DDT may be necessary
| and desirable after all.
|
| DONT'T BELIEVE THOSE ECO-FREAKS! IF THEY WERE FANATICS THEN 
| THEY ARE FANATICS NOW, SO JUST BECAUSE THEY'VE AMITTED A PAST
| MISTAKE IS NO REASON TO EVER TRUST THEM ... (OR MAYBE THEY 
| ACTED IN GOOD FAITH THEN (BUT WERE MISTAKEN) AND ARE ACTING IN
| GOOD FAITH NOW TOO ... OR DOES GREGY FEEL THAT SCIENTISTS MUST
| ALWAYS GET IT PERFECT THE FIRST TIME?)
|
| The admission comes after a de facto 30-year global ban
|
| AH, A 'DE FACTO BAN' ... SOUNDS A BIT 'LEAKY' TO ME.
|
| on DDT that has allowed a resurgence of Third World
| malaria, killing tens of millions of people.
|
| New York Times Endorses DDT
|
| A January 8, 2005 article, written by New York Times
| columnist Nicholas Kristof, reported the growing
| scientific consensus that DDT is environmentally safe and
| an irreplaceable anti-malaria weapon.
|
Š| NICE THING ABOUT SCIENCE IS THAT IT MAKES PROGRESS.
|
| "The U.S. and other rich countries are siding with the
| mosquitoes against the world's poor by opposing the use
| of DDT," wrote Kristof.
|
| 'OPPOSITION' DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A 'TOTAL BAN' TO ME.
|
| "But most Western aid agencies will not pay for
| anti-malarial programs that use DDT, and that pretty much
| ensures that DDT won't be used," Kristof noted. "Instead,
| the U.N. and Western donors encourage use of
| insecticide-treated bed nets and medicine to cure malaria.
|
| AH, HERE WE HAVE IT: 'MOST' ... 'WON'T PAY FOR' == 'PRETTY MUCH 
| ENSURES' == 'TOTAL BAN' ????
|
| Wanting to be fair, and seeking an alternative view from
| anti-DDT activists, Kristof called Greenpeace and the WWF
| for comment. Spokespersons admitted DDT should not be
| banned.
|
| BANNED OR 'SHOULD *NOT* BE BANNED'??? WHO'S SIDE ARE THESE
| ECO-FREAKS ON?
|
| "South Africa was right to use DDT," said WWF
| spokesperson Richard Liroff. "If the alternatives to DDT
| aren't working, as they weren't in South Africa, geez,
| you've got to use it. In South Africa it prevented tens
| of thousands of malaria cases and saved lots of lives."
|
| STRANGE THING FOR AN 'ANTI-DDT ACTIVIST' TO SAY, SEEMS
| TO ME, HAS THERE BEEN A MISCHARACTERISATION HERE?
|
| Greenpeace spokesperson Rick Hind agreed. "If there's
| nothing else and it's going to save lives, we're all for
| it. Nobody's dogmatic about it."
|
| 'ALL FOR IT' ... THE FANATICS!
|
| Ban Killed Millions
|
| AH, THE 'MOST WON'T FUND' == "BAN".
|
| "It might be easy for some to dismiss the past 43 years
| of eco-hysteria over DDT with a simple 'nevermind,'"
| asserted Steve Milloy, an adjunct scholar at the Cato
| Institute, "except for the blood of millions of people
| dripping from the hands of the WWF, Greenpeace, Rachel
| Carson, Environmental Defense Fund, and other junk
| science-fueled opponents of DDT."
|
| PERFECTION OR DEATH! NO MISTAKES PLEASE!
|
| "All I can say is: It's about time," Paul Driessen,
Š| senior policy advisor for the Congress of Racial Equality
| and author of Eco-Imperialism: Green Power -- Black Death
| , said. "Better late than never. But why did so many
| people have to die over the past three decades, because
| of the near-global de facto DDT ban, which these groups
|
| HMMM WE'VE GONE FROM A 'TOTAL BAN' TO A 'MOST WON'T FINANCE'
| NOW TO 'NEAR-GLOBAL DE FACTO'
|
| promoted so incessantly? Will these two organizations now
| join us in a worldwide campaign to support the use of DDT
| in combating malaria and other infectious diseases that
| have destroyed so many lives in so many developing
| countries?"
|
| YES, THEY WILL, RE-READ ABOVE.
|
| "So why do the U.N. and donor agencies, including the
| U.S. Agency for International Development, generally
| avoid financing DDT programs?" Kristof asked. "The main
|
| AND NOW WE'RE DOWN TO 'GENERALY AVOID FINANCING'.
|
| GIVE ME A BREAK!
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 494) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:07:54 pm 
|
| RAY>
| Sorry but as a logician, I can hardly keep my dinner down
| reading stuff like that. There is something very strange going
| on in the minds of people who can quote as authorities the 
| very same people they are trying to discredit even though those
| people have begun to adopt the same position as the people trying
| to dicredit them. To analise:
|
| Jake is a fanatical idiot who should never be listend to because:
| Jake once was opposed to use of DDT.
| Jake now supports use of DDT ergo:
| We have it on authority that the use of DDT is good.
| Jake is an anti-DDT fanatic.
| Jake supports the use of DDT.
| Good people support the use of DDT ergo:
| Jake is a bad person. (quod est demonstrandum)
|
| Sheesh!
|
| (Sorry Jake ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 495) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:17:40 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   Malaria is a caused by a parasite that is found in the blood
| and transmitted by the blood-sucking apparatus of the mosquito. The 
| mosquito is not infected and does not have Malaria. Malaria is treated
| by taking oral medications which act to kill the parasite. None of
| those previous procedures I mentioned are need, nor wood they help, to
| treat Malaria.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 496) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:19:46 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Excuse me.....wood == would in previous post! <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 497) Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:43:41 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   You go right ahead and eat all the DDT that you like....
| I can't stop you....but DDT is still a poison..... this is a 
| perfect example of what I mean when I say, and I quote myself:
|
| People just don't understand Chemistry!  That's why chemicals
| are used in improper ways all the time!
|
| You would have to put a gun to my head to make me eat DDT....and....
| I'm not sure that I'd eat it then!  Just because our great medical
| doctors don't notice any immediate symptom from eating DDT doesn't
| mean it's safe to eat it. Any sane physician will tell you:" Don't
| eat DDT!".   Yet, we have all this crazy noise about the fluoridation
| of water when people have been drinking naturally fluoridated water
| for as long as there have been people, I presume, and it did not
| negatively effect their general health, but it may have helped them
| since it appears to make bone and teeth tougher when consumed in
| the proper concentrations.  But that doesn't mean you should be
| spooning NaF into your cereal like sugar every morning!
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 498) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:16:00 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....Re:..492....ah...hmmmm...well,..<g g g>...use YOUR own head..
| ...<g g g>
| First...we don't know WHAT causes cancer (the "gene-mutation" theory
| is fast losing credibility, since it isn't having any success)...
| We have many "treatments" for the various different "brands" of cancer
| ..but...we do NOT know it's cause, NOR how to prevent it..
Š| Second...the actual successful treatment of cancer is waaayyyy up there
| ...that's why I suggested you "cite figures".....I reiterate....go get
| some figures and cite them...<g g g>
| Third...we canNOT prevent malaria, even though we know what causes it,
| exactly, and how to prevent it, exactly....all because DDT is "polically
| incorrect"....we CAN treat it...but...the "cure" rate is about
| comparable to the "cure" rate for cancer...
| ...
| So, go get your figures.....and post them....
| ...
| THEN, we'll all "use our heads".....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 499) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:22:09 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray....you get waaayyyy out of line, there....I never said "Jake should
| ...etc...etc...etc"...
| Go back an read the posts....
| ...
| Jake said he thought I was protesting in "hindsight....using rearview
| mirror" arguments....and he challanged me as to whether I (or anyone)
| actually HAD protested the DDT ban when it was implemented...
| ...
| I answered that....at least for this round.....<g g g>
| ...
| Go back an read the posts...
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 500) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:31:47 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   I don't care about all these published opinions from 
| magazine and newspapers.  Show me the chemistry of how DDT is 
| metabolized after in gets into alimentary canal. What happens when the
| blood takes it to the liver and the kidneys. How does it effect the
| enzyme balance and the nucleotides?  How does it affect the immune
| system and the nervous system? What kind and how much inflamation
| does it cause?  As far as I know a lot of these important questions
| have no answers yet.  I can tell you for sure that mosquito netting
| doesn't cause immune system dysfunction, or kidney disease, or 
| liver damage. And neither do mosquito zappers!  DDT kills many
| bugs.  Bugs are life forms, living systems, which are physical
| chemical machines. These machines are more complicated than Man
| can even understand today and maybe ever. However, all living
| complex organisms are built of living, metabolizing cells.
| If a substance kills the cells of a mosquito, then it is going
| to have a negative effect on other living organisms also, including
| Homosapiens. Just because you can't see or feel the breeze from
Š| a butterfly flapping it's wings doesn't mean that the butterfly
| isn't moving any molecules. You just don't have the proper sensors
| to see or feel the molecules moving!
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 501) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:35:06 am 
|
| gregy>
| As for the rest of your post.....eggs-ACK-ery....<g g g>....NOW they all
| seem to be swallowing their 30-year tongues and acknowledging that DDT
| isn't "all that" harmful....and can be a beneficial pesticide to use to
| combat the spread of malaria...
| ..
| Also...NOTE...NOTE...you need to read your own posts....your exACT post
| affirms my statement of "tens of millions of deaths" due to the DDT ban
| ...
| And, "de facto" ban does NOT mean "non-successful" ban....the FACTS are
| ..that ALL the reports of aid groups in third world countries NEVER
| mention "spraying DDT" anywhere as one of the/their actions to combat
| malaria...therefore...ips riso facto (on its own face) your post has
| also confirmed my statement about that...
| ...
| So....your 
|
| "Sorry but as a logician, I can hardly keep my dinner down
| reading stuff like that. There is something very strange going
| Sheesh!.."
|
| So, go barf...I give you NO sympathy.....!!!
| ...
| Why, in your thinking, is is illegal for me to use "those folks" OWN
| statements to refute their prior arguments....???
| ...
| Does your "logician" logics give you any answer to that question...??
| ..or can you see the utter ridiculousness of such a stand...
| ...
| YES...NOW they are FINALLY admitting (sort of, and grudgingly) that 
| "they" (the enviro-nutzis) made a BIG mistake, way back there when they
| succeeded in getting it banned....
| ...
| AND...AND...I'm NOW hammering them for their hypocracy,..and for their
| previous idiocracy...
| ...
| So....you think that's "beyond the pale" for tactics to use in debates
| and arguments...???
| ...
| To quote yourself.....SHEESH...!!!!
| ...
| <g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 502) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:40:15 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...hi...bump...< g g>
| ...
| Negative...I'm not going to show you "the chemistry".....YOU go get some
| research projects reports and post the links....
| ..
| I mean ANY report that confirms Carson's claims and reputed research
| results...
| ..
| ALSO...ANY research projects reports that show DDT is harmful...in ANY
| way..
| ..
| Go ON..!!!!....I challenge YOU.....and you aren't delivering...<g g g>
| ...
| he he....can't you understand...???  I CAN get over 12 (more like
| dozens)....bonafide scientific research projects reports that state
| scientifically reproduceable results that DDT has NO harmful effects
| on mammals, of ANY kind....
| ...
| So...go get YOUR bonafide research reports and cite them...then I'll
| rip 'em....and post my own...
| ...<g g g>
| ...
| he he...this is making for an "interesting spring discussion" here..
| ...<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 503) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:44:30 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,  DDT is chemically incorrect....biologically incorrect...
| just because some fool is stupid enough to eat it is not any reason to
| contaminate the world with a poison. Don't you understand, the bugs
| that are affected by DDT build up a resistance to the DDT just like
| the Malaria parasite builds up a resistance to the prophylactic and
| treatment medications that man keeps developing for curing/preventing
| Malaria in humans and cattle etc.  But the treatment medications
| aren't contaminating the environment and living organisms like
| the spraying of DDT does.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 504) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:00:13 am 
|
| Eric>
| Gregy,   You can not find any reliable studies that say
| DDT has no negative effects on living organisms.  I'm sure
| you can find thousands of unreliable reports and studies
| to support your opinions.  Just like I can find you thousands, if
| not millions, of unreliable articles on why water fluoridation
Š| is going to wipe out mankind.  All that malarky proves nothing
| and doesn't change the chemistry.  Eating steel nails is not the
| way to increase the hemoglobin in your blood cells. There's
| iron in the hemoglobin but the chemistry doesn't convert the
| iron in nails into iron in the hemoglobin.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 505) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:00:55 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray....as for "sorry Jake".....poor Jake isn't even gone off "licking
| his wounds"....he he...he doesn't think he's been wounded, yet...<g>
| ...
| Jake and I - discussion/dispute == Jake suggested/challenged that I was
| arguing/complaining from "hindsight or in the rearview mirror"...he
| further suggested that maybe no one actually complained/argued-against
| the DDT ban when it occurred....
| ...
| That's the current extent of our discussion IN THAT THREAD....
| ...
| Results...so far...I've answered his challenge (whether or not to his
| satisfaction, I don't know...he hasn't had a chance to reply to my
| reply)...<g g g>
| ...
| Jake's and my debate/argument is apart from mine and Erics, and mine and
| yours...<g g g>
| ...
| Eric and I == I say DDT is NOT harmful...Eric says it is....
| ...I challenge him to "go get the research"....and promise I'll reply
| to his reply....that's where THAT debate/discussion is, at the moment..
| ...<g g g>
| ...
| Ray(you) and I == I say "ideas have consequences" and Carson's ideas DID
| have deadly consequences, so...I ask...."should there be accountability
| for those deadly consequences......
| ..Ray(you) seem to say, "Oh, let bygones be bygones"....and I reply
| that, if I could get Hitler or Stalin, et al, right here, right now...
| the verdict of history is already in on them, and I'd carry out the
| execution, myself, with my own hands, my own rope, over the limb of
| my own tree....
| ...<g g g g>
| ...
| So, that seems to be the current state/location of those three, current,
| debates...
| ..
| Please correct me if I have misapprehended your (you guys') stands..
| ..<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 506) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:08:45 am 
|
| gregy>
Š| he he...Eric....yes. I CAN find solid, scientifically reproduceable
| research projects reports that show NO harm to any mammals from DDT..
| flat..final...period....
| ...
| I will go start collecting them, starting tonight,....since I appears
| that you will not go yourself and bring back any links to sound reports
| for your own stand...
| ...
| However...I will get my known >12 reports ready for whenever you might
| come back and post the link(s) to your own report(s)...
| ...
| As for anti-fluoridation research/pro-fluoridation research....I'd say
| that, "the data is still out".....<g g g>.....I think a slight weight is
| still with the pro-fluo camp....but....there is research that has put
| some questions out there to be answered....and...as far as I know...the
| research pro-fluor is seeking to (and maybe doing) answer those
| questions from the anti-fluor camp...
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 507) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:12:58 am 
|
| gregy>
| Oh, Eric...BTW....research reports that show that, "exposure to, and
| feeding of, X-levels of DDT...show no ill effects to (whatever mammal
| was used for test purposes, or was observed for overall, long term
| effects."....THAT conclusion IS showing that DDT is NOT harmful to any
| mammal....
| ...
| I don't think you'd try to argue dishonestly about what the results of
| the pro-DDT research reports will be stating....but...I gonna nail it
| down beforehand...<g g g>
| ...
| Re:...nails....he he....("mad enough to eat nails")....<g g g >
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 508) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:13:13 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy,   Just because someone writes it doesn't change the
| chemistry and make it so. Most statistics and their use in 
| science is a misuse of statistics, IMO.  And since most research
| today uses statistical analysis to reach conclusions then one must reach
| a conclusion that most research conclusions are suspect. 
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 509) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:14:18 am 
|
| gregy>
Š| Eric....oh, BTW....so's sodium cloride....a chemical, I mean....he he...
| so's most of what we eat/drink/breath.....<g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 510) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:21:35 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy, Those reports only say that what they were testing for
| showed no negative effects.  That doesn't mean there weren't
| any negative effects that were missed because they weren't
| testing for that particular effect and didn't know enough
| to even think of testing for that effect.  How many studies
| can you show me that have lasted for several generations
| of human beings?
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 511) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:29:18 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy, NaCl is an inorganic chemical and is not metabolized by
| the human chemistry in a way even similar to an organic chemical
| containing benzene rings such as DDT.   However, I'm sure you are 
| aware that many heart patients are told to avoid NaCl just because
| of osmotic pressure effects on the circulatory system. I myself
| question how much good a low salt diet really does in most cases.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 512) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:37:11 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmm....and, hmmmm....and, again...hmmm....< g g g>
|
| http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=2544
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 513) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:39:06 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy,    If you can find any anti fluoridation research that I
| have missed that proves any negative effets then please let me
| know about it. I have been researching it for 40 years and I have
| not yet found any article/research that proved any reason to not
| fluoridate water.
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 514) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:40:45 am 
|
| gregy>
| Well, I'm with you on how beneficial a low-salt diet really is....again,
| I think, "the data is out".....what I think I really mean is, "one size
| doesn't necessarily fit all."....meaning that low-sodium may benefit
| some, which not benefiting others, while actually harming others...
| ...again, I think the data's out...or, it's been hyped to be all
| inclusive when it should have actually specified the some/others/others
| modality..
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 515) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:46:54 am 
|
| gregy>
| no, I haven't found conclusive research evidence, either.  The IS the
| research which hints at some kind of effect(/countereffect???) linking
| fluoridation AND aluminimum AND several other minerals, linking them
| SOMEWAY (unknown exactly, as yet) to the effects seen in the brains of
| Alzheimers sufferers...
| ..
| NOTICE - the research is "still out" (by the reasearchers' own words..
| The reports do NOT, yet, classify the link as "cause" "effect"
| "secondary effect" but seemingly it's more than just random coincidence
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 516) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:50:33 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...
| "... Those reports only say that what they were testing for
| showed no negative effects.  That doesn't mean there weren't..."
| ...
| hmmm...are you saying that, when the research project was deliberately
| trying to reproduce Carson's reported results, and/or trying to detect
| any harmful effects on mammals.....that "showed no negative effects."
| do NOT constitute "showed DDT to have no harmful effects.".....?????
| ...
| I won't agree with that....in fact I'll vigorously disagree with that
| .....<g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 517) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:53:15 am 
|
| gregy>
| NOTE - "showed no harmful effects" do not show "could not possible ever
| show harmful effects, in any future research, forever and ever, amen."
Š| ...<g g g g>
| ...
| he he....
| ...
| but..BUT...absent ANY research showing harmful effects...we CAN calmly
| and truthfully say, "showed(s) no harmful effects"....
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 518) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:56:29 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...
| "...to even think of testing for that effect.  How many studies can you
| show me that have lasted for several generations of human beings?"
| ....
| hmmm...I wonder if you've laid some kinda trap in there....???..<g g g>
| ..'cause that's too easy...
| ..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 519) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 1:58:01 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy,  Did you notice one of the "backwards" light researchers
| was from my U. of Mich. <ggg>  It makes sense to me! But don't 
| ask me to prove it to you!  Also don't ask me how it can be
| put to practical use. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 520) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:02:28 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy,    I'm not talking about epidemiological studies....I'm
| talking about controlled studies.    One reason they use mice
| and flies is because multiple generational controlled studies
| can be done in a shorter period of time.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 521) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:06:50 am 
|
| gregy>
| "..DDT is the best-known of a number of
| chlorine-containing pesticides used in the 1940s and 1950s. It was used
| extensively during World War II by Allied troops and certain civilian
| populations to control insect typhus and malaria vectors (nearly
| eliminating typhus as a result). Civilian suppression used a spray on
| interior walls, which kills mosquitoes that rest on the wall after feeding
Š| to digest their meal; resistant strains are repelled from the area. Entire
| cities in Italy were dusted to control the typhus carried by lice. DDT
| also sharply reduced the incidence of biting midges in Great Britain, and
| was used extensively as an agricultural insecticide after 1945.
|
| DDT was responsible for eradicating malaria from Europe and North America.
| Though today malaria is considered a tropical disease, it was more
| widespread prior to an extensive malaria eradication program carried out
| in the 1950s."
|
| I took this clip from wiki....it's essentially correct, wouldn't you
| agree...???
| ...
|  
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 522) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:09:29 am 
|
| gregy>
| So, to get back to your question:
|
| "...to even think of testing for that effect.  How many studies can you
| show me that have lasted for several generations of human beings?"
|
| he he...read the "History" of the use of DDT, worldwide.....then tell
| me that that doesn't constitute "several generations of human beings"
| .....<g g g>
| ...
| ..oh, and, of course, NO study, research project, or whatever has ever
| shown any harm to have come from that widespread and continuing use..
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 523) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:15:14 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....forget about those "mice" studies....they were/are using such
| high concentrations of DDT that the equivalent for larger mammels would
| be to continually soak in a warm/hot tub of highly concentrated DDT,
| while drinking chilled cans of it the whole while.....<g g g>...likewise
| the fruitfly stuff...
| ...
| It doesn't transfer over to large mammals and humans..
| ..
| FWIW....you MUST depend upon "...epidemiological studies..." otherwise
| you end up (hopefully, but in today's lax moral environment, not for
| certain) ...you end up like Mengele, in the docket tried/convicted for
| medical experimentation on, and mass murder of, human beings..
| ..
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 524) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:18:13 am 
|
| gregy>
| Said topic...if I recall...is where this triple-thread debate started..
| ..with "Being Brenda".......<g g g g g>
| ...
| i.e.  I contended, and still do, that these ideas have consequences,
| and..AND...the perps oughta be held to account...(but I'm not holding
| my breath waiting.).....<g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 525) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:27:19 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy,    One reason you can't find any effect of the DDT is
| That you are depending on epidemiological studies.  I know
| public health people and I ain't them. They can keep using
| their epidemiological studies and getting their strange
| results but they are going to have a hard time convincing
| me of the reliability of those results in most instances.
| There are too many variables....like trying to debug
| Ray's cores after he has changed too many things without
| enough testing.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 526) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:38:35 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy,   You are right about the dosages etc. used in many
| studies using mice and other experimental animals....but
| you can't use humans....right!
|
| RE: Brenda.....It was done with informed consent, it seems....
| Also, the blame is distributed over many people who must have
| been involved including the parents.  Many worse attrocities
| have been perpetrated in the annals of mankind.  I would say
| that psychiatric lobectomies would fall into that catagory. 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 527) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:57:20 am 
|
| gregy>
| ah...I see..."Brenda" agreed to the butchery of her/his masculinity..???
| ...
| also...add "shock therapy"....but we're off the subject..
| ..
| back on.....go "Arachne-find:money"....and follow the links....he's
| an agressive kinseyian, sex-experimentarian and general all around
Š| dirty-old-man.....
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 528) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 3:03:25 am 
|
| gregy>
| Back to this:
|
| "...to even think of testing for that effect.  How many studies can you
| show me that have lasted for several generations of human beings?"
| ...
| by its very definition/description...what you have asked for is just
| that...."epidemiological studies."
|
| I mean....where else, but there, will you get multi-generational studies
| ...???
| ...
| And, right before our very eyes....for the past 60 years, WE have been
| conducting that "multi-generational study"....by observing ourselves and
| fellow citizens....and reading about/paying-attention-to all the lab
| studies....about DDT....none of which have ever shown that DDT is,
| indeed, harmful to us/humans...
| ...
| So, there's your multi-generational study(s)...
| ..
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 529) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 3:12:21 am 
|
| gregy>
| ah....some thoughts that may "MAY" be pertinent to our DDT safe/unsafe
| debate...google for:
| hormesis
| and
| Biological Effects of Low Lever Exposures (BELLE)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 530) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 3:26:49 am 
|
| Eric >
| Gregy,   I already read that post you copied from Wiki.
| It proves nothing. They thought agent orange was safe too.
| Mankind didn't even know some of the effects that pesticides
| could have on man and environment back then.  And I'm sure
| there are many effects that we don't know about now.  But...
| we have had enough experience to say that there are probably
| negative effects that we don't understand yet...so....we 
| don't see or recognise them yet.  There are better ways
Š| to attack Malaria today...mediactions we didn't have back
| then.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 531) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 3:56:09 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....Agent Orange is/was "safe"....he he...come and find the dioxin
| damage on my tired old bod.....<g g g>....I mean, I spent 10 years in
| southeast asia, being "rained on" by the stuff, and wadding thru
| recently bathed fields and forests of the stuff.....he he...and I've
| many compatriots in the same boat....and you bring YOUR doctor to give
| me all kindsa test, etc.....just come prove me affected by that nasty
| ole "agent orange".....<g g g g>
| ..
| Oh, you don't have to accept my sole testimony/evidence for this...you
| can go check/interview the thousands (thousands, I said!!!!) of Air
| Force pilots, loadmasters, crewmen, groundcrewmen,
| tankerdrivers/co-drivers, yada yada...who were constantly involved with
| the stuff, 24/7 during a whole year's tour (and some for multiple tours)
| and...NONE....I said it...NOT ONE....or them has any evidence of ill
| effect from "Agent Orange"....so....go check and find out just WHO those
| folks were/are who were claiming "damage" from Agent Orange...if you do
| I think you'll be verrrrryyyyy surprised.....
| ...
| <g g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 532) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 4:06:23 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....better medications...???  hmmmm...well...apparently they aren't
| working very well....200-300 million new cases every year, with 2-2.7
| million deaths....???
| ...
| hmmmm...sure don't seem to be much help, do they....???
| ...
| whereas...DDT complete eradicated malaria in UK, and mostly in USA and
| Canada, and a few other places.....until it was denied to those "down
| and out" populations....
| ...say....hmmmm
| ...
| I wonder if our good ole eugenicizers haven't been at work
| here/there..??
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 533) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 4:16:12 am 
|
| Jake>
Š| Birth defects? Are both parents vectors for whatever bad AO may do?
|
| Ooops, must have picked up a "MSLM" infection, sponsored by Jane Fonda.
| Any reports are part of the ongoing war against the USA?
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  534) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 10:01:50 am 
|
| ray>
| Gregy,
|
| re 499: Hey! I never said you said. I was just using Jake as a 
| practice target for a logical analisis, for some reason these things
| work better if you pretend to make a real person the victim of the
| bad logic rather than an abstract entity like 'eco-freaks'. Also,
| you didn't quote that URL, it was just the first one I happened upon
| when I was looking for info on DDT use and its logic was so bad
| that I just hadda rant a bit about it. You've gotta admit that there
| is a shade of difference between a 'ban' and 'generaly don't fund'.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 535) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 10:19:15 am 
|
| ray>
| Now, as to 501, the logic problem is this:
|
| John is an idiot and a fanatic
| John has come round to my way of thinking
| John is *still* and idiot and a fanatic.
|
| ... can lead to only one conclusion:
|
| My beliefs are those held by idiots and fanatics.
|
| I can't make it any clearer.
|
| See, what you are trying to do is prove, not that 'they' were wrong,
| (they admit that themselves) you are trying to prove that they are
| Bad People because they were wrong. But that's a tough sell. Tell me,
| has anyone on the right ever made a mistake? Has industry ever
| tried to downplay the dangers of, say, lead in gas, and then been 
| forced to admit latter that they were wrong? Is anyone who ever makes
| a scientific mistake a Bad Person? On balance, I'd say the eco-freaks
| have been right far more often than they've been wrong. Seems to me
| that when dealing with poisons, caution should be the operating 
| principle.
|
| BTW, as I recal, Carson said that DDT was bad for *birds* because it
| thined their eggs. 'Silent Spring' was called that because she feared
| the end of *birds* and therefor birdsong. Was she wrong about the
| effects of DDT on birds?
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 536) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 10:32:53 am 
|
| ray>
| Yes, ideas have consequenses. So: do we stop making desisions because
| there is the chance of error? 
|
| You seem to equate Carson with Hitler, is that fair? You say you'd
| hang der Fuhrer yourself if you could, so would I. Would you hang
| Carson? Would you hang all scientists who have make mistakes?
| Hmmm, putting the shoe on the other foot what would you do with
| right-wing scientists/industrialists etc who claim that something
| is *safe* only to find out 30 years latter that it wasn't safe?
| How many millions dead from, say, industry claims (for 30 years)
| that cigarettes aren't bad for you? Leaded gas? Asbestos?
| In all these cases, industry poo-pooed evironmetalists claims that
| these things were bad, and ithe eco-freaks got it right. What 
| penalty for the idustrialists??
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 537) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:07:18 pm 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| Do we prosecute publishers of the Bible for the deaths caused by
| its interpretation?
|
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley#Defender_or_Demagogue.3F
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  538) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:30:03 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| http://www.malaria.org/safricaddt.html
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 539) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:31:27 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| http://www.ncpa.org/newdpd/dpdarticle.php?article_id=2677
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 540) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:32:48 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| http://netfiles.uiuc.edu/akresh/www/Econ450/Presentations/Malaria-DDT.ppt
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 541) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:35:34 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| http://www.fightingmalaria.org/news.php?ID=374
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 542) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:36:38 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| http://www.fightingmalaria.org/research.php?ID=22&month=
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 543) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:38:45 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/04/mozambique_and_ddt.php
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 544) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:40:44 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmm,
Š|
| http://www.google.com/search?q=ddt%20usage%20africa
| Results 1 - 10 of about 134,000 for ddt usage africa. (0.27 seconds)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 545) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:48:12 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmm,
|
| http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:XC2HhQwjfgQJ:www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 546) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 2:51:04 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmmm,
|
| http://www.google.com/search?q=%22usage%20of%20ddt%22
| Results 1 - 10 of about 355 for "usage of ddt". (0.27 seconds)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 547) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 6:57:38 pm 
|
| Eric>
| The thinning of bird eggshells is not the most important effect
| of DDT. It is a side effect. It's like saying chemotherapy for
| cancer makes you loose your hair and ignoring the fact that whatever
| whatever is causing the hair loss is having other less obvious
| long term effects. The chemotherapy is used because the cancer
| will kill the organism being treated sooner than the other
| damage that the chemotherapy is causing to the organism. The
| chemotherapy doesn't just kill cancer cells it causes other
| collateral damage that is accepted because it kills the
| cancer cells first.  The question isn't "is DDT a poison".
| Any honest chemist will tell you it is. The question is
| how much collateral long term damage are you willing to
| expose those of us to that aren't threatened by Malaria.
| I assure you if DDT is having a negative effect on the bird
| organism then it causes damage to the human organism.
| I repeat again...DDT kills the messenger not the enemy.
| Killing the messenger will never kill the enemy. Nature
| helped kill the enemy in the colder zones like the UK.
| Mosquitos migrate slowly unless transported by some other
| means, such as airplanes. Therefore, they usually freeze
| to death in the winter, unless they migrate to a warmer
| climate. Since a mosquito migration requires many
Š| generations of mosquitos it isn't that hard to kill
| off the messengers with winter temperatures before
| they can regenerate their population. An organism 
| with malaria parasites in their blood stream doesn't
| pass those parasites to another organism unless
| there are messenger mosquitos from the right
| family of mosquitos to carry the parasite to another
| host. The parasites in the host organism survive
| until they are killed or the host dies, which then
| kills the parasites.  So, kill the parasites and
| the mosquitos then have nothing to transport.
| It is my guess that using all the DDT we have
| would not wipeout malaria in Africa. But I am
| sure it would cause a lot of collateral damage.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 548) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:09:20 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Well then... perhaps a better method than killing the 'messenger mosquitoes'
| would be to kill and cremate the remains of any organism found to be infecte
| with the malaria parasite.
|
| This would eventually eradicate the malaria parasite itself and would
| in the long-run save billons of human lives over the centuries to come.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 549) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:13:12 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Just like much of the chemical that my neighbor had sprayed
| on his lawn yesterday is not doing him any good because it
| is running into the sewer right now with the rain. And I 
| know that that chemical is causing collateral damage. My
| neighbor either doesn't understand that or else he is
| willing to accept the collateral damage. Particularly
| if he thinks the collateral damage will not effect
| him. Myself, I don't like swimmimg in a lake filled
| with lawn fertilizer and I like drinking it even less.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 550) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:14:33 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   I agree, but Gregy doesn't seem to like the idea! <ggggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 551) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:17:29 pm 
|
| Eric>
Š| glennmcc,     That's how we are "treating" bird flu and mad cow
| disease right now! <gggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 552) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:22:49 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As to....
|
| "It is my guess that using all the DDT we have
| would not wipeout malaria in Africa."
|
| What basis in fact do you have for making that guess ?
|
| Do you have any 'provable facts' to convince me that your guess is correct ?
| Do you have Any 'concrete evidence' to back-up such a claim ?
|
| As to .......
| "But I am sure it would cause a lot of collateral damage."
|
| Same questions:
| Do you have any 'provable facts' to convince me that said 'collateral damage
| will actually occur ?
|
| Not "might occur", nor "could possibly occur"... but rather scientific
| proof that it actually WILL occur ?
|
| Do you have Any 'concrete evidence' to back-up said a claims ?
|
| As has been shown from over 50 years of wide-spread world-wide use of DDT.
| There _IS_ absoulte, unequivicable PROOF that using DDT _does_ reduce
| the spread of malaria and some other deseases.
|
| As Gregy has asked several times...
| I now join in also asking that you provide SCIENTIFIC PROOF
| that your claims are correct.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 553) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:23:26 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,     If some knuckle-head throws a pencil at the teacher
| then the best way to solve the problem is to keep the whole class
| after school.  Or maybe just expel the whole class. That would 
| reduce the teacher's work load.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 554) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:24:37 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As to ....
Š|
| "is running into the sewer right now with the rain. And I 
| know that that chemical is causing collateral damage."
|
| Where's your proof ?
|
| Without proof... it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 555) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:34:45 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| It _was_ proven that thalidomide  _did_ cause many severe birth defects.
|
| Hence the justified ban of it's use as a sedative.
| And now is only used to treat such things as leprosy and multiple myeloma.
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide
|
| It has never been proven that there are any long-term detrimental
| effects from the use of DDT.
|
| If you know of such proof.......... show me.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 556) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:54:47 pm 
|
| ray>
| Some of those URL's you just posted seemed quite believable, and they
| point out the toxicisity of DDT to many invertebrate species.
| As Eric said, it kill mosquitoes and given that all life on earth
| shares most of it's chemistry in common, the onus is on the 
| advocate to prove that DDT (or any other poison) does NOT do
| harm to unintended populations. As that fanatic Carson said:
| "Spray as little as you possiby can"
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 557) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:55:45 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   You obviously don't understand the chemical and 
| biological implications of the effect of DDT on the birds.
| There is your proof!  You don't have to believe me....that's
| your option.....Cocaine takes a while to kill you but eventually
| with continued use it does....but even that is a short term
| effect....some effects are much more long term and harder to
| demonstrate since experimentation on humans is generally
| frowned upon.  And if you dislike my example of Cocaine, 
| then you can substitute alcohol for cocaine.
|      And it seems most humans don't care how other
Š| organisms are affected if they don't see an immediate effect
| on themselves.  Most humans fail to understand how closely
| their own organism is related to other animals and birds.
| We humans are just one big chemical reaction...I'm referring
| to our worldly bodies...and so are other animals. I assure
| you that DDT is not inert and doesn't just go into your
| mouth and come out your a** without reacting chemically.
| The bird eggs prove that if your looking for proof.
| And if it comes out in your urine there is proof that it
| has been in your blood stream and had a much more intimate
| relationship with your chemistry.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 558) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:06:26 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    How would you like to get your proof ?......Cover the 
| whole continent of Africa with a cloud of DDT inside a big golf
| dome type tent (if one could....I don't think there's enough DDT)
| (I'm sure we'ed figure out a way to build the tent)....And then
| observe the consequences?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 559) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:06:58 pm 
|
| Jake>
| I thought it found a long term home in one's fat reserves
| and hence accumulates as you travel up the food chain.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  560) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:16:43 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| "advocate to prove that DDT (or any other poison) does NOT do
| harm to unintended populations."
|
|
| Therefore you presume guilt until innocence is proven ?
|
| You of all people should know that it is impossible to prove a negative.
|
| You cannot prove that something is not... you can only prove that it is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 561) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:18:13 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Eric,
|
| "You obviously don't understand the chemical and 
| biological implications of the effect of DDT on the birds.
| There is your proof!"
|
|
| WHERE is said proof ?
|
| Show it to me.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 562) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:20:05 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   Mankind has never wiped out any disease yet.
| Mankind just diminishes the incidence of any particular
| disease to a level that Mankind considers insignificant.
| And when suddenly a few cases are diagnosed somewhere,
| then Mankind goes into panic mode.  Mankind even sometimes
| gets lonesome and bored and so Mankind likes to give a
| boost to some particular disease. eg. Anthrax
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 563) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:20:11 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"The bird eggs prove that if your looking for proof."
|
| Show me the proof that DDT caused the claimed thinning of the egg shells.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 564) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:23:22 pm 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/ddt.htm
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  565) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:24:54 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"....Mankind goes into panic mode..."
|
| Those of us who demand proof do not go into panic mode as a result of
| hearing unsubstantiated claims.
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 566) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:26:23 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    The way I understand it, in higher math and physics,
| and in biochemistry,  many proofs are based on "what is not".
| And some of these proofs are used to make life or death decisions! 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 567) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:39:00 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Thank you Jake.
|
| Now that sir is PROOF.
|
| As we see from the EXTREMELY high doses which were required to induce
| and detrimental effects.
|
| DDT is quite safe.
|
| Much, much safer than many, many items we use in large quantities every day.
|
| I just wonder what would be the detrimental effects of administering
| those same HUGE dosages of let's say salt or iodine or flouride or sugar.
|
| All of which are REQUIRED for continued good health.
|
| If one were to ingest those same dosages of mg/kg/day of iodine... one
| would be dead in a month.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 568) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:41:02 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,   Thank you for the link ! <ggg>  I was going to let
| glennmcc do his own googling for it! <ggg>   I refuse to 
| give him chemistry lessons...not that I wouldn't like to...
| I just am spending way to much time on this as it is! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 569) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:43:54 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,    You see...it does no good....if it doesn't kill you
| by morning then it's safe ! <ggg>    Like I said, let them
| do their own googling....I'm just wasting my time ! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
Š|
| 570) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:55:51 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Hmmm,
|
| Might kill ya a lot quicker than I suspected.
|
| http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/nutrition/factsheets/iodine.html
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 571) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:55:55 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,  The way simple inorganic substances and sugar chemically
| react with body chemistry are entirely different than complex 
| organic compounds such as DDT. Simple inorganic compounds don't
| change reactions in the cell nucleus and mitochondria. They have
| minimal if any immunilogical effects. Yes the dosage levels
| do effect the results but some times they are necessary to get
| the proof you keep asking for.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 572) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:57:25 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As the facts-and-figures prove ... iodine is much more toxic than DDT.
|
| Therfore we must ban iodine.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 573) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:00:25 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/ghindex.html
|
|   "The dose makes the poison."
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 574) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:01:39 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    Iodine is a halogen like chlorine, fluorine, bromine.
| They will all kill you in appropriate doses. They are less lethal
| as their halide salts eg NaCl.
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 575) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:03:06 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"... Yes the dosage levels do effect the results but some times they are
|     necessary to get the proof you keep asking for....."
|
| By that same line of logic.... administering extremly high doses of
| iodine proves that iodine must be banned due to the fact that it is much
| more toxic than DDT.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 576) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:04:58 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   The poison effect of DDT is not the real concern.
| It's the other chemical alterations that it causes that are
| the concern.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 577) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:06:40 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Gasoline will kill you if drink it.
|
| We must ban gasoline.
|
| Battery acid will kill you if you drink it.
|
| We must ban lead/acid batteries.
|
| Lead will kill you if you eat it.
|
| We must ban all products which contain lead.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 578) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:08:36 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"The poison effect of DDT is not the real concern.
| It's the other chemical alterations that it causes that are
| the concern."
|
|
| I ask again....
|
| Where is the proof that said "other chemical alterations" have caused or
| will cause any detrimental effects due to DDT usage ????
|
| ============================================================================
Š|
| 579) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:09:44 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| And I say again.........
|
| Without proof... it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 580) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:14:32 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/
|
| Scroll-down to "The Red Scare"
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 581) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:15:32 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| Oops... bad link.
|
| Good link ;-)
|
| http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-221.html
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 582) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:18:40 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| There still was no positive proof of either potential danger or safety.
| FDA ultimately decided to ban the color because it had not been shown to be 
| The agency based its decision in part on the presumption that the color migh
|
|
| Ah ha..........
|
| Presumed to be guilty becuase it could not be proven to be inocent.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 583) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 9:20:25 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| By that same line of logic, we must ban every product wjhich cannot be
| proven to be safe on the basis that it might be dangerous.
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 584) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 10:20:13 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   Science says that 1/2 of the DDT that I use in my
| backyard will still be there 15 years from now. And if I use
| it next year, 9/15 of that DDT will be there 15 years from now,
| and if I use it the 3rd year 2/3 of that will be in the ground
| 15 years from now.  It is realitively insoluble in water so that
| it washes away very slowly. It is that insolubility in water that
| accounts for much of its low toxicity. If it doesn't dissolve in
| water then it is harder for the body to absorb it. So, if you
| want to get it into your body faster, drink it with some organic
| solvent eg. olive oil.  Turpentine or acetone might dissolve it
| but they would probably mask the effects of the DDT if swallowed.
| However, those latter solvents would probably work if you would
| like to experiment with the transdermal approach. 
|      Peronally, I want to avoid DDT, and I do.  If you can read
| and understand that link that Jake posted and STILL advocate the wide
| spread use of DDT then I think you either have suicidal tendencies
| or you think you are immortal.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 585) Sat, May 13, 2006 - 11:03:07 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   Dyes in general are often rather complex organic
| molecles, like DDT is, which react with organic chemicals 
| in the living organism and often cause chemical reactions
| which are detrimental to the life of the organism...affecting
| the internal functions of the living cells.  I think there are
| a lot of needless laws, a lot of stupid bans and a lot of things
| that should be banned but are not.  But I do not think the
| indiscrimimate use of DDT would be beneficial to mankind.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 586) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:55:30 am 
|
| Eric>
| Re: Iodine
| glennmcc,  I would strongly oppose spraying clouds of iodine
| over the earth.  <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 587) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 6:17:50 am 
|
| glennmcc>
| As would I. ;-)
|
| However, I _do_ advocate the continued use of DDT to control the spread
Š| of diseases such-as malaria.
|
| The facts have proven that the health benefits of DDT usage
| far out-weigh the health hazards of its use.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 588) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 9:05:00 am 
|
| ray>
| Boy we do like to hash things out don't we?
|
| I am totaly on side with Eric here. Glenn, there is no analogy
| between how we treat toxins and how we treat people charged with a
| crime. For the latter 'inocent until proven guilty' is a very good
| principal. For the former, 'guilty until proven inocent' is much
| better because we know these things have detrimental effects and we
| also know that the fact that (as Eric said) you can eat some and
| still be alive the next day is grossly insuficient to establish it's
| long term safety. Since the 'age of chemistry' started in about the
| '50's, we are now seeing cumulative, interactive and long term
| effects of these chemicals that have taken 50 years to manifest 
| themselves.
|
| Although 'negative proofs' are entirely possible (logicians use them
| all the time), negative proofs in this sort of situation (pesticides)
| are almost never going to happen, so stop asking for them! The best
| we are likely to do is to say that "so far, no acute or long term
| detrimental effects have been shown from exposure to XYZ" -- that
| is as much as we can hope for.
|
| Iodine is essintial to life, the fact that in excess it can kill
| is not an argument that small amounts of DDT are OK -- DDT is not
| essential to life.  (Breakfast, back ...)
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 589) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 9:24:54 am 
|
| ray>
| As to gasoline, that's a very streached analogy. We don't normaly
| ingest gasoline do we? If the normal use of gasoline was to have
| it spayed into the environment, including on our food, I would indeed
| suport severe restrictions on its use.
|
| However, all that said, I have been convinced that DDT is probably
| safer than I thought is was and probably should be used more
| liberaly than it is, all things considered. But I'm still with
| the fanatic Carson "spray as little as you possibly can".
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 590) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:22:44 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"all the time), negative proofs in this sort of situation (pesticides)
| are almost never going to happen, so stop asking for them!"
|
| _I_ never asked for a negitive proof.
|
| Each and every one of my requests was asking for positive proof that
| DDT causes damage.
|
| It was _you_ who asked for negitive proof with this one.....
|
| "shares most of it's chemistry in common, the onus is on the 
| advocate to prove that DDT (or any other poison) does NOT do
| harm to unintended populations."
|
| That is why it was _I_ who pointed-out that you can't prove that
| something is not.... you can only prove that it is.
|
| To put it another way...
| It is not possible to do as _you_ are advocating and
| "prove that DDT (or any other poison) does NOT do harm...."
|
| It is only possible to prove that it does do harm.
|
| And _that_ is what I am asking you to find proof of.
|
| <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 591) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:24:59 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"-- DDT is not essential to life."
|
| Tell that to the millons of people whom have died each year due to its
| "under-use" since the DDT scare began.
|
| <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 592) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:31:22 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"the fanatic Carson "spray as little as you possibly can"."
|
|
| I also agree with that point of view.
|
| But since malaria and other mosquito transmitted diseases are still very
| rampant in some areas of the world..... it must be the logical
Š| conclusion that DDT usage needs to be increased.
|
| That is of-course if a more effective alternative is not found.
|
| Since DDT _is_ the most effective method currently known, it makes no
| sense what-so-ever to not use the most effective method known.
|
| As I said...
| The facts have proven that the health benefits of DDT usage
| far out-weigh the health hazards of its use.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 593) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:46:17 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   The specific effect of DDT to kill you may not 
| be there but if you understand the 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 594) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:53:53 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| If I understand the... what ? <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 595) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:17:14 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Eric must've been trying daily increasing doses of DDT until the inevitable 
|
| "He swallowed a fly"  <G>
|
| ============================================================================
|
|   596) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:19:38 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| So now he must swallow a spider to catch that fly. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 597) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:21:24 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   The URL that Jake posted to EXTOXNET tells you that
| DDT makes living organisms sick.  The kind of proof you want
| will probably never exist in our lifetime but the bad effects 
| of misuse of DDT will continue long after our demise. Animals
| will not die of DDT poisoning probably (and that includes human
| animals). They will get seriously ill and/or die of opportunistic
| diseases because of DDT poisoning.  People who have AIDS don't
Š| die of AIDS. They die of other diseases because their immune system
| can't defend them from things that you and I are fending off
| right at this moment. So the more DDT that is lying around undissolved
| on the ground, the more animals that will be sick with DDT effects
| and thus susceptible to illness from things that would normally
| not make them ill.  The way to stop malaria is to do more research
| to find a way to eliminate the parasite that causes it and/or to
| make the human body able to fend it off, like vaccination does.
| The world is just more interested in spending money on other
| things.  Those diseases that mankind has managed to reduce to
| insignificant levels are those that are treated by giving the
| human body the ability to defend itself against the diseases.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 598) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:26:24 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Post #593 (chopped off)  happened because of the way this 
| board works without a mouse.  I was trying to see more back messages
| and it got sent by mistake. However....Jake......the fly made a
| nice snack. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 599) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:32:49 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,   The spider was kind of fuzzy and bitter due to
| its venom. It gave me the coughs.  <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 600) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:41:08 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| You must be mistaken.
|
| Windows makes one cough.
|
| Our beloved spider 'Arachne' does not.
|
| <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 601) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:02:05 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glrnnmcc,    No W$doze coughs and makes me swear!
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 602) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:04:16 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,  Sorry for the mis-type on your name.....too much DDT! <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 603) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:24:41 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| No problem Etic... forget it. <gggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 604) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 5:17:15 pm 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| After all that DDT, you're not looking half the man you were, Eric:
|
| http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Songs/EricTheHalfABee.html
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  605) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 5:29:04 pm 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| I _knew_ there was a fish involved, but got confused with
| the more recent Billy the Fish. Anyway, as Eric is getting
| used to a surfeit of DDT...
| http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/fish.html
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  606) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 6:34:21 pm 
|
| ray>
| Glenn,
|
| posts 582, 583 seemed like you were saying that we should presume
| saftefy until we have proof every possible long term danger is not
| a consern.  Never mind. But you did catch me: Correct, no such proof 
| will be forthcoming I was thinking about the 'proof' of 'no
| ill effects seen so far ...'
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 607) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 6:35:45 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Hehehehe !!!
Š|
|
| I just LOVE Monty Python. :))
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 608) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 6:37:51 pm 
|
| ray>
| Enough said, as I pointed out, one again you and Gregy have
| modified my view on an important subject so thanks ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 609) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 6:46:00 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| re:"...were saying that we should presume
| saftefy until we have proof every possible long term danger is not
| a consern....."
|
| Nope... not at-all.
|
| I most definately should have made myself more clear on that point.
|
| What I was trying to say is that in the cases sited... people are
| creating 'unwarrented fears' by presuming that a thing _is_ dangerous
| with no hard evidence which proves such a claim.
|
| That's how the red #2 scare happened, and it's how this DDT scare happened.
|
| Both were presumed to be dangerous without ever being proven to be so.
|
| And after over 30 years .... niether has been been proven to be
| dangerous, but both are still presumed to be dangerous.
|
| Over the years, hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent
| on further research and still there is no scietific proof that either
| of them poses a threat.
|
| And still they are both presumed to pose this unproven threat.
|
| And still more hundreds of billions of dollars will continue to be
| spent on further research.
|
| That's not science... it is 'fear tactics' being used for monetary gain.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 610) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 7:04:42 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
Š| A little diversion for anyone using Winblows ;-)
|
| Let's see if this works.
|
| http://www.mix989.com/cc-common/videos_on_demand/index.php?reference_id=3594
|
| If it does... you'll see that Shania ain't just country no more. ;-)
| (must have JS enabled and must allow the pop-up that it will open
| to play the music video)
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 611) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 7:06:05 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Sorry... also requires Windows Media player.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 612) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 10:40:45 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    And I'm telling you the proof is there...but...
| because you don't seem to understand what the EXTOXNET site
| that Jake posted is showing, you don't see the proof.
| Just like someone who hasn't studied C programming doesn't 
| understand C source code.  You don't seem to fully comprehend
| the implications of DDT damage to birds (which has been proven)
| and how that can be related to humans.  And all the rest of
| the damage described in the EXTOXNET site.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 613) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 10:48:16 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,    Thanks for the Monty Python bit....it sounds familiar...
| they have been playing ole Monty Python on the telly over here lately
| and I have noticed that I appear frequently in their skits. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 614) Sun, May 14, 2006 - 10:54:00 pm 
|
| Eric>
| It all comes back to my original observation...very few people
| really understand chemistry and how it affects their every day
| life......AMEN !!
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 615) Mon, May 15, 2006 - 6:14:34 am 
|
| Jake>
Š| Ordinary folks don't understand feedback mechanisms, game theory or
| catastrophe theory either. And half the population doesn't understand
| the other half, but that's cos they think they're from Venus and we're
| from Mars.
|
| Dogs are very understanding...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  616) Mon, May 15, 2006 - 5:36:07 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,     Yeh, dogs are happy if they can just find a
| nice fire hydrandt or a spiffy new car wheel hubcap to
| decorate...or...a cute butt to sniff.  <ggg>
| Of course, some dogs have been known to bite...and
| people find it often difficult to understand dogs.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 617) Mon, May 15, 2006 - 6:22:28 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,    And "ordinary folks" do most of the writing and publication
| and broadcasting in today's world...so...most information is
| disseminated by those who don't understand what they are saying. <gggg>
| Or should I say that they understand only enough to make them
| dangerous. 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 618) Mon, May 15, 2006 - 9:27:23 pm 
|
| ray>
| And that is why the slow, painful deaths of civil public discourse
| and the 'informed citizen' are so dangerous. In a democracy the
| bulk of the people *must* have the brains to at least sense when
| they are being bamboozled.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 619) Mon, May 15, 2006 - 9:30:31 pm 
|
| ray>
| Hey Gregy, take a bow for having more or less convinced me that
| DDT, though I still think it is a dangerous poison who's long term
| effects could be very harmful, I've come to see that in many situations
| it could easily be the lesser evil when compared with rampant
| malaria.
|
| Hmmm, interesting sentance, I change grammatical form half way through,
Š| but it works.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 620) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 12:08:25 am 
| URL
|
| quaalude>
| i'm on a dos text based browser called archane .. how cool is that it's a 28
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  621) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 3:48:08 am 
|
| gregy>
| et al....you know guys....you REALLY need to google for those two terms
| I listed, back when:
|
| hormesis
|
| BELLE
|
| THEN come back here and go pounding your "poisons, poisons, unnatural,
| unnatural" mantras again...
| ...
| Until you do...you're gonna be chasing your tails around in circles
| ...<g g g>
| ..
| I reiterate.....
| 1.  DDT has been shown to have NO harmful effects upon any mammals, at
| all, flat, final, period......that, by the way, is in waaayyyyy massive
| doses that are unimaginably MORE than anyone could conceivably ever be
| exposed to (my illustration of soaking in a hot tub of it while drinking
| iced cans of it is an applicable illustration).
| 2.  DDT has been shown to have NO long-term persistence in nature.  The
| so-called studies that showed such persistence have ALL been debunked.
| The authors of three of those studies were FORCED to eat their words
| when it was found they had done their tests in a woods right next to a
| spray-plane airfield, over said woods the planes were "calibrating"
| their spray equipment by short bursts....hmmmm...you couldn't POSSIBLY
| ever think that those enviro-nazis doing the "scientific" studies "just
| boo-booed"...I mean..."OOPS..!!!" could you....???...he he....or, could
| you, perhaps, ascribe their little "oversight" to "just advancing the
| Holy Agenda" by any means, deceitful or dishonest, possible...???
| 3.  Re:  "thin eggshells"....I wish you'd go LOOK at the literature (as
| opposed to the enviro-nazi propaganda and lies)...Carson's so-called
| research/results have been COMPLETELY discredited, in ALL her claims.
| NOTE - numerous "scientific experiments" were carried out by reputable
| scientists (multiple, independent) and the ONLY way they found to get
| her reported "thin-shells" results was to feed their birds a calcium
| deficient diet.  DDT did NOT result in thin-shells.
|
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 622) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 3:53:52 am 
|
| gregy>
| Re:....Carson's responsibility...???  Given that NONE of her claims have
| EVER been confirmed....can you pronounce "F-R-A-U-D"....?????????????
| ...deliberate...???  malicious....???  and all done to "advance the
| Holy Agenda"....????
| ...
| Her fraud has diRECTly caused the death of tens of millions....
| ..
| Or course....according to Ray....that's just an "excusable OOPS"..right
| ...???
| ..
| Or, should fraud/scam/con-artists, who's deliberate acts cause peoples'
| deaths just get off the hook by claiming, "OOPS, I didn't know the gun
| was loaded.".........
| .......<g g g g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 623) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 4:37:30 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric:...Re: 557...
| "...glennmcc,   You obviously don't understand the chemical and 
| biological implications of the effect of DDT on the birds.
| There is your proof!  You don't have to believe me....that's..."
|
| However.....Eric....if..IF...if....there were NO "...effect of DDT on
| the birds."  would you agree that the proof pointed in the reverse
| direction....???
| ...
| I'm afraid that you've finally convinced me that that would have no
| effect upon your constant pounding of your "poison, etc" mantra..
|
| Because....as I have forcefully presented several times....there has
| been NO "effect of DDT on the birds"....flat, final, period...
| ...
| ...yet..you refuse to go check the scientific experiments and test
| results, and you refuse ahead of time the results of "epideilogical
| studies" (aka clinical studies) as being useless, AND...and...you
| refuse to post ANY studys' results to show your point...about "poison,
| poison, etc"....
| ..
| I say again,....NO harm from DDT...either to mammals OR to birds...
| ..you say "harm, harm, harm".....
| ..
| Alright...so....post your data/evidence.....we're waiting
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
Š|
| 624) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 4:42:42 am 
|
| gregy>
| Re: 545....Glenn's link to that FAQ has one of the authors as J. Gordon
| Edwards...??
| ...
| he he....I previously cited a college professor who went around to
| school assemblies in North America...???  The one who used to eat DDT
| onstage, to show it's harmlessness...??
| ...
| That's the guy....<g g g>.....he remained in good health, was physically
| vigorous (climbed mountains, etc) and died in 2004 at the age of 85
| ...<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 625) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:07:29 am 
|
| gregy>
| Jake...Re: 564...however, contrary to that Cornell data, Dr. Philip
| Butler, director of one of Fish and Wildlife's research laboratories,
| conducted tests that showed that 92 percent of DDT and its metabolites 
| disappear from the environment after thirty-eight days.  This data was
| presented to the (pre-ban) EPA hearings.
| ..
| The director of WHO stated that no symptoms from DDT had been observed
| among the spraymen or the millions of inhabitants of the sprayed houses.
| ..this evidence was also presented to the (pre-ban) EPA hearings.
| ...
| Those Cornell data show extremely high levels of dosage to induce any
| effects, at all, in the lab animals.  This is, as I said, levels that
| would be unrealistic to ever expect any mammal to acquire through normal
| exposure.  Even during the height of the DDT usage, here in the USA,
| where we were spraying it from airplanes over villages and towns, and
| using "fogger" sets in the cities.
| ...
| Since the ban....further studies have continued to show the harmlessness
| of DDT to all mammals.....AND...and....further studies (lab and field)
| have failed to show ANY shell-thinning effect on birds' eggs...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 626) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:12:43 am 
|
| gregy>
| Re:..that Cornell data state that DDT is metabolized (and its
| metabolites, also, are metabolized) "slowly"...without giving any
| figures to show what "slowly" is....with respect to "how fast is fast"
| "how fast is medium" "how fast is normal"....etc....
| ...
| That data does give a few hints...that DDT is metabolized and eliminated
Š| from the body...and that in relatively short time scale....and...again
| ...
| All the research studies are either inconclusive or show that presence
| of DDT in the human body shows NO signs of harmful effects.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 627) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:35:41 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric...Re: 597...
| "...glennmcc,   The URL that Jake posted to EXTOXNET tells you that
| DDT makes living organisms sick.  The kind of proof you want..."
|
| No....here's where you are making YOUR mistake.....that Jake-linked
| data showes that GROSS OVERDOSAGE of DDT makes (some) living organisms
| sick....
| ...
| I think there's a demonstrated difference....e.g...iodine....absolutely
| essential for good HUMAN health.....but...in overdosages....deadly..
| ...<g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 628) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:44:15 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....Re: 612...
| "...because you don't seem to understand what the EXTOXNET site
| that Jake posted is showing, you don't see the proof...."
|
| hmmmm....did you actually read those dosages...???....<g g g>
| ...
| Now, I'm one of those dummies who doesn't claim to be a "chemical whiz"
| ...but...even I can see WAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY overdosage...
| ..
| I mean.....you're the expert....can't you decipher that overdosage
| level....???
| ...
| <g g g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 629) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:48:52 am 
|
| gregy>
| Ray...Re: 619...
| nope...nope...absolutely not...I never set out to, nor do I want to,
| change your way of thinking about something.....<g g g>
| ...
| What I DO want to do...is charge/challenge anyone arguing their point to
Š| "post your data"....
| ..
| Now, Eric (and maybe Jake) are arguing from data-link Jake posted...and
| arguing that that data "proves their point(s)".....however, Glenn (and
| I, also)...have tried to point out....
| ...
| Those reported dosage levels are WAAAYYYYYYYY overdose....and...as I
| pointed out about iodine....
| ...
| small doses, absolutely essential to human life.....overdosages..deadly
| ...
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 630) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:51:40 am 
|
| gregy>
| Oh, and Eric....if I'm reading you right...you are still propounding on
| the DDT bad effects on thin-shelled bird-eggs....???
| ...
| And, you're citing that Cornell data (Jake's link) in support of your
| argument...???
| ...
| ...I think you don't wanna be embarrassing yourself...perhaps you'd like
| to go back and read that data, then maybe retract your "birdshells"
| statement(s) (at least, your implying that that Cornell data backs up
| your statements on that point)....
| ...<g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 631) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:30:52 am 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmmm.....
|
| http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 632) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 3:53:19 pm 
|
| ray>
| Well I dunno Gregy, you can eat DDT if you want and wash it down with
| some leaded gas. Me I think it's prudent to minimize our exposure to 
| poisons as much as possible even if the toxic effects are not
| imidiately apparent. As the nazi said "Spray as little as you possibly 
| can" ... sounds like good advice to me. Sieg Heil.
|
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 633) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 4:42:46 pm 
| URL
|
| glennmcc>
| My final words on this subject,
|
| IMO it's time to stop doing this......
| http://www.cisnet.com/glennmcc/images/deadhorse.gif
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 634) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:11:06 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,     That horse probably ate grain and grass from
| a field dusted with DDT back in the 1950's.  Most likely
| liver and kidney damage! <ggg>  Also, a little brain cell
| damage too based on the way it was trembling before it
| lay down. <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 635) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:16:09 pm 
|
| Eric>
| The horse didn't die of the organ damage, however.  It died of
| Equine Encephalitis because of the lowered immune response
| caused by the DDT ingestion.  <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 636) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:19:02 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
|         ==============================================================
|
|                Get a glimpse into life far into the future, in
|                the year 2056... 
|
|                Ozone created by electric cars now killing
|                millions in the seventh largest country in the
|                world, Mexifornia, formally known as
|                California. 
|
|                Couple petitions court to reinstate
|                heterosexual marriage. 
|
|                Last remaining Fundamentalist Muslim dies in
|                the American Territory of the Middle East
|                (formerly known as Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and
|                Lebanon). 
Š|
|                Iran still closed off; physicists estimate it
|                will take at least 10 more years before
|                radioactivity decreases to safe levels. 
|
|                George Z. Bush says he will run for President
|                in 2058. 
|
|                Postal Service raises price of first class
|                stamp to $17.89 and reduces mail delivery to
|                Wednesdays only. 
|
|                85-year, $75.8 billion study: Diet and Exercise
|                are the keys to weight loss. 
|
|                Average weight of Americans drops to 250 lbs. 
|
|                Japanese scientists have created a camera with
|                such a fast shutter speed, they now can
|                photograph a woman with her mouth shut. 
|
|                Massachusetts executes last remaining
|                conservative. 
|
|                Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals
|                violates their civil rights. 
|
|                Average height of NBA players now nine feet,
|                seven inches. 
|
|                New federal law requires that all nail
|                clippers, screwdrivers, fly swatters and
|                rolled-up newspapers must be registered by
|                January 2057. 
|
|                Congress authorizes direct deposit of formerly
|                illegal political contributions to campaign
|                accounts. 
|
|                IRS sets lowest tax rate at 75 percent. 
|
|                Spotted Owl plague threatens northwestern
|                United States crops and livestock. 
|
|                Baby conceived naturally . . . scientists
|                stumped! 
|
|                Florida voters still don't know how to use a
|                voting machine 
|
|         ==============================================================
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 637) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 5:21:31 pm 
|
| Eric>
| The chili that Seinfeld's friend Kosmo fed it didn't
| help either !!  <ggg>
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 638) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:04:17 pm 
|
| Eric>
| gregy,    As I said before, iodine is essential for life.
| DDT is like an antigen.  It is foreign to the chemistry 
| of living organisms and so it disconbobbolates it. In some
| organisms eg.fish  it gets more and more concentrated with
| time which is related to the high levels of oils in fish
| and the solubility of DDT in oils.  The human body is a
| miraculous complex chemical reaction which can stand/cope with
| tremendous abuse...but...that doesn't mean that the abuse
| causes no damage. The EXTOXNET site describes the permanent
| damage so please stop saying that DDT doesn't cause any
| damage. It gives detailed listing of the effects on specific
| bird species. It affects the sex organs and anything that
| affects the sex organs effects life as we know it.  
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 639) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:24:58 pm 
|
| little_birdie>
| Effects on Birds: DDT may be slightly toxic to practically non-toxic to bird
| _____________________________^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^________
| Reported dietary LD50s range from greater than 2,240 mg/kg in mallard, 841
| mg/kg in Japanese quail and 1,334 mg/kg in pheasant (81). Other reported
| dietary LD50s in such species as bobwhite quail, California quail, red-winge
| blackbird, cardinal, house sparrow, blue jay, sandhill crane and clapper rai
| indicate slight toxicity both in acute 5-day trials and over longer periods 
| 100 days (82). In birds, exposure to DDT occurs mainly through the food web
| through predation on aquatic and/or terrestrial species having body burdens 
| DDT, such as fish, earthworms and other birds (82). There has been much
| concern over chronic exposure of bird species to DDT and effects on
| reproduction, especially eggshell thinning and embryo deaths (82). The
| mechanisms of eggshell thinning are not fully understood. It is thought that
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| may occur from the major metabolite, DDE, and that predator species of birds
| are the most sensitive to these effects (82). Laboratory studies on bird
| reproduction have demonstrated the potential of DDT and DDE to cause subtle
| effects on courtship behavior, delays in pairing and egg laying and decrease
| egg weight in ring doves and Bengalese finches (82). The implications of the
| for long-term survival and reproduction of wild bird species is unclear. The
| evidence that synergism may be possible between DDT's metabolites and
| organophosphate (cholinesterase-inhibiting) pesticides to produce greater
| toxicity to the nervous system and higher mortality (82). Aroclor (polychlor
| biphenyls, or PCBs) may result in additive effects on eggshell thinning (82)
|
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 640) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:38:08 pm 
| URL
|
| nasty_s**t>
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/chlordan.htm
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 641) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:43:08 pm 
|
| REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/coppersu.htm
|
| Wanna buy some ?
|
| http://www.fortune3.com/~comp73799/Chemicals_A_F-Copper_Sulfate-.html
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 642) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:44:59 pm 
|
| REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| Fate in humans and animals: Absorption of copper sulfate into the blood
| occurs primarily under the acidic conditions of the stomach. The mucous
| membrane lining of the intestines acts as a barrier to absorption of ingeste
| copper [8]. After ingestion, more than 99% of copper is excreted in the fece
| However, residual copper is an essential trace element that is strongly
| bioaccumulated [8]. It is stored primarily in the liver, brain, heart, kidne
| muscles.
|
| However, birds got nothing to fear.........
|
|
| Effects on birds: Copper sulfate is practically nontoxic to birds. It poses 
| a threat to birds than to other animals. The lowest lethal dose (LDLo) is 10
| mg/kg in pigeons and 600 mg/kg in ducks [8]. The oral LD50 for Bordeaux
| mixture in young mallards is 2000 mg/kg [27].
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 643) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:51:54 pm 
|
| still_more_REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| Still in use and still available under some restrictions....
|
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/sulfuryl.htm
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š| 644) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 6:57:34 pm 
|
| still_more_REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| Another just like the last....
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/methylpa.htm
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 645) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 7:00:52 pm 
|
| still_more_REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| And another...
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/isofenph.htm
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 646) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 7:03:04 pm 
|
| still_more_REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| And still another.....
| http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/fenthion.htm
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 647) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 7:06:29 pm 
|
| still_more_REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| IMPORTANT NOTE:
|
| All of those show very NASTY reactions at doses many hundreds of times
| lower than those of DDT
|
| But every one of them is still in use.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 648) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 7:18:02 pm 
|
| still_more_REALLY_nasty_s**t>
| .......While it is effective as an
| insecticide, it is also moderately toxic to mammals, and highly toxic to bir
| on its high toxicity to birds, fenthion is used in various parts of the worl
| bird control. Pest control operators have used it to control pigeons around 
| buildings, as well. For bird control, use is made of fenthion's contact acti
| ready absorption through the skin. It is applied as a paste to roosting area
| utilized for such purposes. ........
|
| So, it's NOT permitted to use DDT which _MIGHT_ cause the _THEORETIC_
| tinning of egg shells.
|
| But it is permitted to intentionally poison birds with fenthion.
Š|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 649) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 10:04:15 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| All those "really nasties" that are organic chemicals are
| controlled substances.  CuSO4 is a salt of sulfuric acid
| often referred to as battery acid. Neither the Cu nor the
| SO4 is good for ingestion. To kill a tree I've been told
| that all you need to do is drive a copper nail into it.
| All of those substances have short half lives in the soil
| compared to DDT.  None of them are sprayed over everything
| the way DDT is used.  They really have no bearing on the
| the decision of whether to use DDT to control mosquito
| populations. 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 650) Tue, May 16, 2006 - 10:17:01 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| Let me see...I think I got it...the EXTOXNET is a good
| authority on all those "nasties" enumerated above....
| However, it's full of Sh*t when it comes to DDT...
| Well....I suppose it's possible..... 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 651) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 7:33:35 am 
|
| gregy>
| Eric....you not even reading that data....I, and Glenn, have pointed
| out to you that those LD50s are WAYYYYYY high, and (if you REALLY read
| those data) you will see that the data itself says that....
| ...
| So, again....ANYTHING (even water) is toxic to humans/mammals if you
| ingest/absorb enough of it...
| ...
| But, the doses humans/mammals/birds/etc have been exposed to, since
| the 1930s is NOT, and never has been, at all toxic....
| ...
| That, bars the rare exception where some massive overdose occurred.
| ...
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 652) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 1:03:55 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Forget it Gregy...... the horse is 'dead and buried'. <ggg>
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 653) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 1:55:08 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| The LD50 has little to do with long term chronic organ damage
| and immune system disruption.  LD50 only addresses short term
| effects. 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 654) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 2:18:53 pm 
|
| The Pussycat>
| So where is the evidence of "long term chronic organ damage and immune syste
|
| Do you know of any ?
|
| Dose any such evidence exist ?
|
| If so... please show us said evidence so that we too may become as
| enlightened as you.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 655) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 2:28:45 pm 
|
| The Pussycat>
| All of the evidence here... http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/ddt.htm
| shows effects only at very high dosages.
|
| Dosages so high that a human of 70kg would have to ingest 200mg per
| day every day for several weeks before any adverse effects occured.
|
| In addition, several statements of this nature exist at that link....
|
| "... Adverse effects on the liver, kidney and immune system due to DDT
|  exposure have not been demonstrated in humans in any of the studies
|  which have been conducted to date...."
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 656) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 2:30:41 pm 
|
| The Pussycat>
| Here's the perfect quote drictly from... http://extoxnet.orst.edu/ghindex.ht
| 17 May 2006 15:29:40
|
|                          "The dose makes the poison."
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 657) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 4:59:19 pm 
|
Š| ray>
| I should leave this alone but ...
| You are right and wrong at the same time. Sure, acute toxicity may
| be low for DDT, we are all using the same reference for our positions
| after all and that's what it says. That's not what's at issue.
| 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' as even non-logicians
| like to say. I think Eric and I quite agree that the acute toxicity of
| DDT is low and that the stuff should be used more often but as to
| long term effects, it's still to soon to say what that stuff might be
| doing. As I said before, there are some poisons that don't reveal 
| their damage for 50 years. One I read of manifests in the third
| generation! To assume that because studies to date show DDT to be
| relatively benign is hardly a demonstration that we should throw
| all caution to the winds as to it's use. People in north america
| are showing increasing insidence of all sorts of strange illnesses
| and I'm not the only one who thinks that chronic low level exposure
| to a witches brew of synthetic chemicals is the cause. If I'm correct,
| these effects will *never* be demonstrated in toxicology tests because
| those tests simply can't return data for such things -- but they may
| be very real just the same.
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 658) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 6:37:43 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Noone ever claimed that they weren't.
|
| All I have ever asked for is even one shed of evidence that proves that
| they are.
|
| Can you find any ?
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 659) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 6:41:41 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| As to 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'.
|
| Quite correct correct.... it is not evidence of anything at-all.
|
| That's the point.... there is no evidence of anything at-all.
|
| Absence of evidence _is_ absence of proof.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 660) Wed, May 17, 2006 - 11:08:23 pm 
|
| ray>
| 'shreds?' sure, in quantity it is agreed to be toxic in several
Š| different ways, the only thing that can be disputed is at what level
| the toxicity manifests itself and over what period of time and if there
| is any 'safe level'. And as I said, overnight survival is not sufficient
| to indicate that safe level. I think it is just prudent to err on the
| side of caution and not eat the stuff in the absence of 'proof' one
| way or the other (which might never be forthcoming anyway). Who knows,
| maybe there is indeed a safe level, but I'm rather doubful. In the 
| mean time I say, let those mosquitoes have it with both barrels ;-)
|
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 661) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 2:08:27 am 
|
| W0rm>
| Considering the number of people who stand to profit from DDT, I think there
| resistance to whatever bias + pro-DDT propaganda comes out.  I think the hum
| now that we can't be messing with things like this - especially if it's mere
| convenience.  We shouldn't even run the *risk* of *any* kind of negative sid
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  662) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 2:45:49 am 
|
| Jake>
| Without a profit or profit incentive we won't have much of anything.
| Certainly not a chemical alternative.
|
| Gregy would no doubt say that there needs to be adequate resistance
| to the power of the EPA, WHO and whoever.
|
| An aerosol fly-killer is a convenience; saving lives isn't. However,
| a monoculture or reliance on one magic bullet is the way to eventually
| suffer an "exploit". BSE and Human-CJD are tragic examples of us messing
| with things, but sheep carcasses are "natural" and if cows shouldn't
| eat them, should they eat fish-meal or soy?
|
| Illness, injury and death are the results of many activities. People
| would take note of DDT in my country if there were 3,000 deaths per
| year attributable to its usage. But that's just the price of a relatively
| safe road transport-based economy.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  663) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 3:58:44 am 
| URL
|
| Eric>
| Hey WOrm,   Check this out !  Mentions DDT if you read far enough. <ggg>
|
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm
|
|
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 664) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 4:55:56 pm 
|
| ray>
| Yeah, I'm with Jake there, a no-risk policy goes no where. Everything
| we do is based on a risk-benefit analysis. We should neither 
| IMHO do like Gregy and assume that DDT is absolutely harmless nor
| watch half of Africa be devestated by malaria and do nothing because
| poisons are indeed poisonous. Tough choises must be made but let's make
| them with our eyes open and our feet on the ground.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 665) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 5:53:33 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| The Owl and the Pussycat went to sea
| In a beautiful pea green boat
| They took some money and plenty of honey
| Wrapped up in a five pound note
|
| They took some persimmons
| And other provisions
| But left DDT for the goat
| ('Cause they new he'd eat anything)
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 666) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 6:13:11 pm 
|
| Rescue Boat Captain>
| We found the Owl and the Pussycat drowned at sea...
| but the goat is still alive and well.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 667) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 6:44:54 pm 
|
| FSA inspector>
| If the goat had been a Nanny,
| her milk wouldn't be saleable.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  668) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 6:47:32 pm 
|
| Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde>
| If it was frothy enough, we'd drink it!
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š|  669) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 6:48:56 pm 
| URL
|
| Eric>
| Sun to release source code for JAVA
|
| http://www.techspot.com/news/21621-sun-to-release-source-code-for-java.html
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 670) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:03:38 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Bad move... very bad indeed. :(
|
| I can foresee thousands of new JAVA viruses springing up within a short
| time of the release.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 671) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:04:43 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| The goat setup a mocha-latte' establishment
| With computers at every table
| And Viagra in tall cylindrical dispemsers
| To counteract the effects of the DDT
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 672) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:06:21 pm 
|
| ray>
| Cool, maybe once they release, we can use it or someone else will
| make a dos port or something. Or maybe it will just be legal for
| us to use Wolf's stuff. Whatever.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 673) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:08:19 pm 
|
| Eric>
| glennmcc,    Yah, probably, That's the downside of GPL.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 674) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:10:50 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Well....nothing changes....glennmcc the eternal pessimist and
| Ray the naive optimist
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 675) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:18:53 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Ray my man,
|
| That is JAVA ..... not java script.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 676) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:19:53 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Howard Wulf's stuff is a java script interpreter... not a JAVA VM
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 677) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:20:07 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| Rescueboat Captain,     Owls seldom drown unless poisoned
| by DDT.  That's one reason the two, Owl & Pussycat, were
| such good friends.  Pussycat knew that Owl would pick
| her up and fly her to safety if the seas got too rough.  <ggg>
| So, if you found them floating, then...someone did them in! <:-( 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 678) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:20:56 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| Eric,
|
| I am not a pessimist.... I _am_ a realist. <ggg>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 679) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:25:30 pm 
|
| Recue Boat Captain>
| It seems that The Owl needs to re-read the facts
| about the effects of DDT on birds.
|
| Effects on Birds:
| DDT may be slightly toxic to practically non-toxic to birds.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 680) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 7:27:21 pm 
|
| Recue Boat Captain>
| As we see....
Š|
| "Owls seldom drown unless poisoned by DDT"
|
| is a false statement because birds are not poisoned by DDT.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 681) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 8:33:24 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| Rescueboat Captain,    Please define "slightly toxic"...
| I guess that means that DDT has no LD50....Right?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 682) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 8:41:29 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| I guess "slightly toxic" means that the dosage that I, the Owl,
| am likely to get from my environment and eating DDT laden
| rodents, etc., will only slow me down enough so that my
| preditors will find it easy to catch me and that I can't
| fly when it gets windy. And my sex life is going to suck!  
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 683) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 8:50:42 pm 
|
| The Owl>
| What do you call it when the chicken that you eat is
| filled with DDT. Is that chicken poisoned?  There is
| no honest scientist that will refute the fact that
| chickens that feed in an area where DDT is used will
| have DDT in there bodies. If mankind eats one of those
| chickens then he will have DDT in his body.  I would
| prefer to have no DDT in my body.  DDT has no known 
| beneficial effect for the human body!
| effect
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 684) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 9:47:10 pm 
|
| ray>
| Glenn,
|
| Well I still don't know the diff between Java and Java script <:(
| And you are a pessimist all right -- always tellin' me that 
| somethings impossible then I go and do it anyway even with my 
| lack of knowledge of things internet, like HTML etc. Sheesh, if I 
| had half your knowledge ...
|
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 685) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 9:49:32 pm 
|
| ray>
| Oh, and I admit that I am a bit naieve but I'd rather err in that
| direction than the other way.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 686) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 10:37:03 pm 
|
| Rescue Boat Captain>
| What is slightly toxic ? You ask ?
|
| Yep.... the Owl sure _does_ need to  re-read that page.
|
| Becuase it is shown right there under your nose just how EXTEMELY
| high the dosage must be before it becomes toxic to birds.
|
| "Reported dietary LD50s range from greater than 2,240 mg/kg in mallard, 841
| mg/kg in Japanese quail and 1,334 mg/kg in pheasant (81). Other reported
| dietary LD50s in such species as bobwhite quail, California quail, red-winge
| blackbird, cardinal, house sparrow, blue jay, sandhill crane and clapper rai
| indicate slight toxicity both in acute 5-day trials and over longer periods 
| 100 days (82)."
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 687) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 10:39:37 pm 
|
| Rescue Boat Captain>
| Now tell me honestly... do you actually believe that any level of DDT
| usage for the purpose of mosquito control is going to put that much DDT
| into the environment ???
|
| If so..... PROVE it with FACTS not CONJECTURE.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 688) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 11:04:39 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Recsque Boat Captain,    Yes, based on previous experience,
| and the literature published by investigators I trust, and
| my knowledge of Chemistry, backed up by degrees from
| world reknown institutions, I believe DDT is a dangerous
| chemical and it should be closely controlled, especially
| because some individuals misinterpret published data and
| what that data means. I really hate to see government
| control anything but based on the history of DDT use,
| I believe it is necessary for the benefit of mankind. 
Š|
| ============================================================================
|
| 689) Thu, May 18, 2006 - 11:58:47 pm 
|
| Eric>
| The LD50 for a 2 lb. duck is less than a gram of DDT.  If I were
| to drop one gram of DDT dust from shoulder height to the ground it
| would probably require a magnifying glass for one to find individual
| particles since it is such a small amount of dust. And that is
| assuming that there is no wind.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 690) Fri, May 19, 2006 - 12:05:34 am 
|
| Eric>
| Excuse me I mis-read the posting because of line fragmentation.
| That should be just over 2 grams for the duck, less than 1 gram
| for the japanese quail which is a very small amount of powder.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 691) Fri, May 19, 2006 - 12:24:07 am 
|
| Eric>
| one gram of DDT would be no more than 2 standard size asprins.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 692) Fri, May 19, 2006 - 12:29:08 am 
|
| Eric>
| So 4-6 asprin sized DDT tablets would probably kill a Mallard duck.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 693) Fri, May 19, 2006 - 12:34:52 am 
|
| Eric>
| About how many asprin sized amounts do you suppose are dispersed
| over the landscape when a swamp is dusted ?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 694) Fri, May 19, 2006 - 3:45:09 pm 
|
| ray>
| Eric,
|
| Since you're a chemist, when I use TSP to clean aluminum, there is
| a recation that produces H2 but I'm a bit unclear as to the reaction:
|
Š| Al + Na3PO4 + H2O >> H2 + ??
|
| Whatever corrosion takes place seems very mild, I've left bits of Al
| in strong TSP for weeks and although there's lots of H2, the 
| attrition of the metal seems very minor.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 695) Fri, May 19, 2006 - 4:37:45 pm 
| URL
|
| Eric>
| Ray,   Read this....This is the kind of thing that agrivates
| me about how chemicals are dispensed/controlled/treated in
| our society. As Gregy says, the control of chemicals is not
| rational.  You can go to any hardware and buy aluminum cleaner
| which contains HF which I know from experience the average
| person doesn't know the way to safely use. 
|
| http://www.purdue.edu/dp/envirosoft/housewaste/house/alumcl.htm
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 696) Sat, May 20, 2006 - 6:37:46 am 
|
| Eric>
| Ray,    What makes you think that Na sub 3 PO sub 4 when applied to
| Aluminum releases H sub 2 gas?    Phosphoric acid when applied to 
| Aluminum just sits there.  It is a relatively mild acid as acids
| go.  I know TSP makes a basic(alkaline) solution that is used for
| cleaning in house renovation procedures. I have not used it for
| quite a while and generally avoid using it unless absolutely
| necessary. The only way I could see you getting H sub 2 gas
| is if you are passing an electric current thru the solution.
| Some phosphate coatings have been used as rust prevention
| coatings on steel but at this point I don't recall much about
| them. I had a bottle of solution at one time that when applied
| to steel created a phosphate coating. I got it from an uncle
| who worked as a chemist for a company that was developing
| rust proofing coatings. I left a good hardened steel box
| wrench sitting in about a 1/2 inch deep cup of the solution.
| When I remembered to remove the wrench I had a surprise...
| the whole end of the wrench was gone.  I made a double ended
| box wrench into a single ended box wrench. From looking at
| my storm doors I would say that the sulfates, sulfites and
| sulfides in acid rain do the best job of attacking aluminum.
| But don't ask me for the exact reaction equation...I don't
| have any reference books handy and it's been too long.
| On the other hand if you put the trisodium phosphate solution
| in a steel container with an aluminum object sitting in the
| solution, then I bet you'll get some corrosion of the
| aluminum by electrolysis.
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 697) Sat, May 20, 2006 - 10:32:32 am 
|
| ray>
| Yup, there's no rhyme nor reason. HF was the one chemical which
| I was taught to morbidly afraid of in school.
|
| Well, it bubbles and I captured the gas and it 'pops' just like
| H2 when sparked (been doing that since my first chem set when I was
| 11, don't worry, small quantities only ;-) 
|
| TSP is great stuff tho, nothing cleans quite as well with so little
| residue, I use it all the time.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 698) Sat, May 20, 2006 - 7:51:46 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Ray,   I was going to suggest testing the gas for ignition with 
| a flame source but I thought better of it...I didn't want to
| hear about you on the TV News.  Does it bubble a lot...you know...
| like foam like a head of beer....or does it just bubble like
| a small leak in a motorcycle tire when you hold the wheel
| under water in the leak testing tank.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 699) Sat, May 20, 2006 - 10:40:03 pm 
|
| ray>
| Eric,
|
| It's about half way between those. There's a nice steady stream 
| but not enough to make anything like a 'head' as on beer. If you
| can figure out what the reaction is I'd be obliged, I googled it
| but didn't find anything specific. Seems to me if H2 is coming off
| then somehting like the phosphate is attacking the Al, the 
| Na is then forming hydroxide with the releease of the surpluss
| H2 ... but it seems to me that such a reaction would be contrary to
| the normal reaction potential of NaOH.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 700) Sat, May 20, 2006 - 10:59:46 pm 
| URL
|
| Eric>
| Ray,  The reaction is of the aluminum with the alkaline solution.
| The trisonium phosphate creates the alkaline solution which then
| reacts with the aluminum to release hydrogen gas. Check out this
Š| page:
|
| http://www.geocities.com/crazytwo2000/react2ans.html
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 701) Sat, May 20, 2006 - 11:19:17 pm 
| URL
|
| Eric>
| Ray, do you get a cloudy flocculant type precipitation ?
| Aluminum hydroxide should form a gel.  I think they use
| aluminum hydroxide in the purification of water because
| it traps impurities.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 702) Sat, May 20, 2006 - 11:44:34 pm 
|
| Eric>
| Ray,   Aluminum is an extremely reactive metal.  The only reason
| it can exist in our world is that it forms a protective oxide
| coating instantaneously.  Maybe that is part of the reason
| that the reaction is somewhat subdued.  I wonder what the
| result would be if one put some aluminum filings into a testtube
| of water and dropped in a piece of Na.  DON'T TRY IT !!!
| My guess is it would be like fireworks at a rock concert GONE BAD !!
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 703) Sun, May 21, 2006 - 3:14:00 am 
|
| Jake>
| ISTR that Al filings were a component of Polaris fuel.
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  704) Sun, May 21, 2006 - 3:29:43 am 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| Aha!
|
|  http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0246.shtml
|
| though to be more accurate: "The most common type of aluminum 
| used in solid propellant formulations is powdered spherical aluminum 
| 5 to 60 mm in diameter".
|
| I suppose that should be nm, as mm don't seem to be in the realms
| of "powdered".
|
| ============================================================================
|
Š|  705) Sun, May 21, 2006 - 3:47:59 am 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,    I wouldn,t be surprised....metal powder/filings are used
| in dry propellants/explosives.  I'm no expert and I stay away from
| those things pretty much...but...I used to make all kinds of 
| functional model boats, airplanes, cars etc. which get into
| that kind of stuff as well as working as a lab assistant in
| university chem lab and 6 years in chem. labs as a student
| so one runs across info and experiences some of that type
| of chemistry. Unfortunately, I know a few people who didn't
| fare too well after mixing together some rather potent
| explosive mixtures.  I didn't see it, but, I was told of
| a student, grad student I think, who was distilling some
| very explosive/unstable chemical. When he turned the glass
| petcock on some of the glass equipment it caused it to
| explode in his face and eyes. The explosion was so powerful
| that it pulverized the glass so finely that the chemist wasn't
| seriously cut or blinded by the explosion.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 706) Sun, May 21, 2006 - 4:08:49 am 
|
| Eric>
| Jake,   I wrote before but I don't know if you saw it....When
| I was a college freshman one of my stupid classmates put a concoction
| of that sort in a coke bottle. He then ignited it in the freshman
| dormatory just down the hall from me.  When one of my other classmates
| caught him he had shards of glass imbeded in his clothing and hair.
| I personally don't understand how he survived without sever injury.
| The dorm was built to be practically bomb proof but he wasn't.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 707) Sun, May 21, 2006 - 4:23:35 am 
|
| Eric>
| When I was old enough to know better my friend made/acquired
| some dry rocket propellant and we decided to make a jet/rocket
| car.  We constructed...very poorly, I might add...a rocket car
| using a piece of galvanized pipe for the rocket body.  We placed
| it in the middle of the street and lit the fuse.  Nothing 
| happened !   AND THEN.....BOOOOOOOM!   This mushroom cloud
| of inpenitrable black smoke rose up from the middle of the 
| street. We ran and hid and watched this big black cloud
| drift between the houses.  We were lucky no one got hurt!
| We never could find a single piece of the rocket car.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 708) Sun, May 21, 2006 - 4:33:06 am 
|
| Eric>
Š| Jake,   BTW spherical pellets compact and behave better than
| filings and provide a more uniform reliably controlled 
| combustion is my guess.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 709) Sun, May 21, 2006 - 8:25:07 am 
|
| ray>
| Eric,
|
| Thanks, that's probably part of the reaction. I didn't notice
| any gel but then again I wasn't looking for any and I tend to
| not notice anything that I'm not looking for, I'll do it again.
|
| As far as I know, Al is a routine component in solid rocket fuels.
| As to to the rocket car, many an experimenter has learned the hard way
| that the difficult part of explosives technology is controling the
| burn rate, that's what differentiates a gun propelant from a rocket
| fuel from a blasting charge from a weapon.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 710) Mon, May 22, 2006 - 7:04:49 pm 
|
| ray>
| Hey, I just added a keyword for 'exitonhangup' since I almost always
| want that, but isn't there something like that in your core? Seems to
| me that it was already there, but I can't find it.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 711) Mon, May 22, 2006 - 9:48:49 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| That has always been there.
|
| 153 Arachne Keywords, Allowed Values and Ranges: with some explanation.
|                                                         Last updated 02/07/1
|
| <snip>
|
| "EditHotlistEntry" Yes|No
| "ExitOnHangup"     Yes|No
|
| <snip>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 712) Mon, May 22, 2006 - 9:51:43 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
Š| The checkbox to enable/disable it has always been on ppp_init.htm
| and on pppenhan.htm
|
| X exit to DOS after hangup 
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 713) Mon, May 22, 2006 - 9:55:24 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| --- in protocol.c ---
|    value=configvariable(&ARACHNEcfg,"ExitOnHangup",NULL);
|    if(!(value && toupper(*value)=='Y'))
|     strcat(buf,"@arachne -c\n");
|    else
|     exitmsg();
|    *returnvalue=willexecute(buf);
|    return GOTO_END;
|   }
| ____________________
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 714) Tue, May 23, 2006 - 7:16:17 am 
|
| ray>
| Thanks, I thought so. Somehow I lost the function but retained the
| keyword. My $roura creation code it totaly different, so I probably
| lost it there. Anyway, it's back and working.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 715) Tue, May 23, 2006 - 8:28:01 pm 
|
| ray>
| Hey, we haven't had a good scrap here for days now, life gets 
| boring, where's Gregy to rouse me out of my sloppy liberal 
| complacency? ;-)
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 716) Tue, May 23, 2006 - 9:10:28 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Guys....I'm sorry, but I'm gonna be (sorta) absence for a few weeks..
| ...I mean, I'll check back occasionally (very occasionally..<g g g>..)
| ...
| ..but...I've got a "springtime project" thrust upon me, and I'm about
| a quarter of the way in, and there is NO way to stop (or hesitate, or
| lolly-gag) along the way.....<g g g>
| ...
| So, it isn't lack of interest....I'm just totally tied up....
Š| ..
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 717) Wed, May 24, 2006 - 7:00:51 am 
|
| ray>
| Ok, good luck with whatever it is.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 718) Wed, May 24, 2006 - 9:59:56 am 
| URL
|
| Jake>
| Maybe he's on a mission to assassinate David Attenborough?
|
| http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article570935.ece
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  719) Wed, May 24, 2006 - 4:27:37 pm 
|
| ray>
| Well, if I wanted that eco-nazi eliminated, I know who I'd
| hire for the job ;-)))
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 720) Wed, May 24, 2006 - 6:56:22 pm 
|
| Jake>
| Al Gore is a closer-to-home target for Gregy...
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  721) Wed, May 24, 2006 - 7:25:33 pm 
|
| ray>
| Yeah, with Sagan and Rachel Carson already dead.
|
| Seriously tho, I do share some of Gregy's dislike of certain
| elements
| within the Democrats in particular and liberals and socialists
| in general.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 722) Thu, May 25, 2006 - 6:44:56 pm 
Š|
| W0rm>
| I like how you named liberals first :)
|
| ============================================================================
|
|  723) Thu, May 25, 2006 - 9:13:14 pm 
|
| ray>
| didn't mean nothin' by it, I could have said it the other way.
| In any case, I tend to take a rather negative view of people
| who like to tinker with fundamental social institutions.
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 724) Sat, May 27, 2006 - 3:15:12 pm 
|
| W0rm>
| So you don't think I should get benefits for having gay
| sex?  Homophobe!!!  hehe
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
|   725) Sat, May 27, 2006 - 4:27:47 pm 
|
| glennmcc>
| You _do_ get something for having gay sex.
|
| It's called AIDS
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 726) Sat, May 27, 2006 - 4:57:03 pm 
|
| ray>
| Have all the gay sex you want just don't try to pass your best boy
| off as your 'spouse'.  Oh, and don't try to tell me I'M sick 
| because I recognise your sickness for what it is -- a serious and
| dangerous disruption of your hormonal and/or social equilibrium.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 727) Sat, May 27, 2006 - 4:58:33 pm 
|
| ray>
| Nut's, too late. If the Canadian Thoughtpolice catch that last post
| I'm done for.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 728) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 3:53:55 pm 
Š|
| ray>
| Hey Gregy, how's that spring project goin' ?
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 729) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 8:25:46 pm 
|
| gregy>
| hho ho ho ho ho....We'll send you "love and kisses" in "Thought
| Police
| Heaven"......<g g g g g>
| ...
| Re:  spring project.....yes....it progresses....<g g g>.....but...
| ..with me...it's ALWAYS...."Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey".....<g
| g g>
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 730) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 9:14:58 pm 
|
| ray>
| You know, some have said that even here in Kanistan, the 
| highwater mark has been reached with thoughtpolicing, there are
| signs that folks in general are a bit feed up with it, and several
| 'human rights tribunals' have had their wings clipped. Mind, I'd
| still be arrested if I publicly said anything that might hurt the
| feelings of a Jew, a faggot, a woman, an indian, or anyone of
| dark pigmentation.
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 731) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 9:37:38 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| The esteemable "Hitch"...
|
| http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008441
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 732) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 9:39:11 pm 
|
| gregy>
| Well...I'd probably not use those appellations just because their
| "rude"
| ....errrmmmm....hmmmmm....well, I guess "women" IS kinda rude.....to
| some feminazi.....<g g g g>
|
|
Š| ============================================================================
|
| 733) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 9:55:26 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| hmmmmm.....
|
| http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/4603_0_2_0_C/
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 734) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 10:45:14 pm 
| URL
|
| gregy>
| ...and...our "Sunday-Steyn".....<g g g >
|
| http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn28.html
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 735) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 11:10:20 pm 
|
| ray>
| Thanks, yes, Hitch does write well, a pleasure to read both for
| style and content.
|
| Interesting comments on Katrina too.
|
| Steyn ... not quite so good.
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 736) Mon, May 29, 2006 - 11:27:06 pm 
|
| gregy>
| ah...well...that's because of your "libby-soccy-proggy" biases....
| ...<g g g>....and...possibly because it's Monday, not Sunday..
| ...<g g g >
| ...
| but...I refuse to apologize....it FEELS like Sunday.....<g g g g>
|
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 737) Tue, May 30, 2006 - 2:44:24 am 
| URL
|
Š| gregy>
| hmmmmm......
|
| http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/27/93622.shtml
|
|
| ============================================================================
|
| 738) Tue, May 30, 2006 - 4:12:46 pm 
|
| ray>
| Well well! Seems Al should be welcomed into the anti-environazi
| fold no? It looks to me like maybe he's really a good-old-boy 
| after all. 
|
|
| ============================================================================